“Unofficial Coins of The World” Kenney 13

johnny010

Does anyone have a book that was published in the 60s called: Unofficial Coins of The World by a Richard Kenney? I’m looking for Kenney 13 to see if it matches a $100 gold coin that I’d call extremely rare.

1984worldcoins

I have the Unusual world coins from Krause 2011 , what coin do you search for?

johnny010

It’s a gold United Nations $100 coin that’s 77% gold and has a melt of 1.3 ounces (these were just recollections from people). Is says (1922) on the label since the coin has MCMXXII on it but we know it’s not from 1922 since the UN was not formed until October of 1945.
The label says Kenney - 13 which is supposed to be leading me to an article and or his book possibly in 1954. I was told there is no image in the write up. I was also told there was an article published in the Numismatist in the 60s. I joined ANA yesterday and spend two hours searching the 50s and 60s but did not find what I was hoping for.

I do believe the information is out there since I met two people that confirmed the story.

1960NYGiants

Photos?

johnny010

There’s quite a story but I wanted to read the article before I share all the details. Look very closely at the details comparing obverse Vs reverse.

Assuming there is an article / write up in the 50s or 60s, I can’t figure out what EE stands for on the reverse since the European Union was not created until 92. Possibly Easter Europe?

Also looks to have Greek language on the coin.

johnny010

More information

I meet with Jeff Shevlin and he’s agreed this coin should be in his volume 2 update to So Called Dollars (volume 1 was just released).

If I can find more information about this coin it would be very helpful.

I do believe more information is out there since PCGS reference this as a Kenney - 13.

ELuis

Nice coin indeed.
Found this, see if helps:
https://www.abebooks.com/Unofficial-Coins-World-Richard-Kenney-Numismatist/31013664764/bd

CoffeeTime

A quick internet search turns up the precursor to todays UN.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Federation_of_League_of_Nations_Societies

Sapyx

It's a shame the Abebooks snippet doesn't include the page with K-13 on it. The medal doesn't seem to be listed in the Krause catalogue of Unusual World Coins, which is probably why PCGS is giving it a K number rather than an X number.

I haven't seen a modern coin or medal utilizing Greek numerals for the date before - not even modern Greek coins do this.

This Greek date - resembling "A-(backwards-euro-symbol)-I-Z", converts to 1917; the backwards-euro-symbol is the archaic Greek letter sampi, and stands for the number 900. I don't know why this date is different to the roman-numeral date of 1922; neither of those dates correlates to the founding of the League of Nations (Société des Nations). The "United Nations" of course was founded much later.

I also don't know why "DRACHMAIA" on the EE side is spelled with a Latin "R", rather than the Greek rho, which is shaped like a Latin "P". I'm guessing Greek wasn't their first, or second, language.

My best guess as to the meaning of "EE": since it's stamped on the eastern hemisphere of the globe, and the western hemisphere is stamped "US", I'd assume it's either "England and Europe", or "États européens" (European states). With the strong emphasis on Constantinople, I'd guess they are postulating the formation of some kind of European Federation, centred on Constantinople (which would presumably be given back to the Greeks) which would oversee the eastern hemisphere, while the US takes charge over the western half of the planet. It's the Monroe Doctrine, taken to its logical conclusion.

From the blurb on Abebooks, Kenney isn't really a "book" as such, it's a 40 page booklet reprinted from articles published in "The Numismatist", the ANA journal. If you've got (or can get) copies of the 1962 to 1964 issues of The Numismatist, they should have the same information.

johnny010

@CoffeeTime said:
A quick internet search turns up the precursor to todays UN.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Federation_of_League_of_Nations_Societies

Ok
The coin says United Nations. What are you suggesting because I’m not following.
Appreciate your input.

johnny010

@Sapyx said:
It's a shame the Abebooks snippet doesn't include the page with K-13 on it. The medal doesn't seem to be listed in the Krause catalogue of Unusual World Coins, which is probably why PCGS is giving it a K number rather than an X number.

I haven't seen a modern coin or medal utilizing Greek numerals for the date before - not even modern Greek coins do this.

This Greek date - resembling "A-(backwards-euro-symbol)-I-Z", converts to 1917; the backwards-euro-symbol is the archaic Greek letter sampi, and stands for the number 900. I don't know why this date is different to the roman-numeral date of 1922; neither of those dates correlates to the founding of the League of Nations (Société des Nations). The "United Nations" of course was founded much later.

I also don't know why "DRACHMAIA" on the EE side is spelled with a Latin "R", rather than the Greek rho, which is shaped like a Latin "P". I'm guessing Greek wasn't their first, or second, language.

My best guess as to the meaning of "EE": since it's stamped on the eastern hemisphere of the globe, and the western hemisphere is stamped "US", I'd assume it's either "England and Europe", or "États européens" (European states). With the strong emphasis on Constantinople, I'd guess they are postulating the formation of some kind of European Federation, centred on Constantinople (which would presumably be given back to the Greeks) which would oversee the eastern hemisphere, while the US takes charge over the western half of the planet. It's the Monroe Doctrine, taken to its logical conclusion.

From the blurb on Abebooks, Kenney isn't really a "book" as such, it's a 40 page booklet reprinted from articles published in "The Numismatist", the ANA journal. If you've got (or can get) copies of the 1962 to 1964 issues of The Numismatist, they should have the same information.

Thank you. Yes I do have the subscription and have been searching by “United Nations” but I’ll go and read every publication from those dates.

Since it says United Nations, assuming it has to be post 1945?

I’ll do a bit more research and then tell the story.

Sapyx

I don't think "united nations" on this medal means our iteration of The United Nations - it's aspirational for what they'd like to see happen, rather than an actual name of an organization.

johnny010

I found the information. I’m pending ANA to see if they will allow me to screen shot the page and share.

johnny010

ANA has not replied yet.

Based on what was written I have also contacted the ANS in NY. Scott H Miller who wrote Medallic Art of the American Numismatic Society, 1865-2014, donates his time and I’ve been informed he’s going to start the research on this pattern dollar.

More as it hopefully develops.

johnny010

@Sapyx said:
I don't think "united nations" on this medal means our iteration of The United Nations - it's aspirational for what they'd like to see happen, rather than an actual name of an organization.

I agree with you @Sapyx

Also thank you for your contributions to this thread. I have forwarded these thoughts over to Scott to add to his research.

johnny010

I realized I did not close out this thread with my updated research. Would anyone like to read the rest of the story? If so I’ll take the time to update.

coinkat

just curious... is there a company name on the edge? It almost looks to have this mid 1960s Medallic Arts Company vibe-

edited to add- it does say Mille Francs so chances are it have been minted after the establishment of the 5th Republic in 1959 based on the exchange rate

edited to add- I think the rationale above for the timing after 1959 is likely wrong even though it still may have been struck in the early-mid 1960s

edited to further add: I am stumped- And it is getting progressively more confusing as to the timing of the mintage and issuance of the coin.

This one of the more interesting threads I have seen lately. I feel guilty missing it the first time around

Sapyx

@johnny010 said:
I realized I did not close out this thread with my updated research. Would anyone like to read the rest of the story? If so I’ll take the time to update.

Always happy to hear about updates on mystery coins.

johnny010

These were my first findings

johnny010

My third findings (out of order here intentionally):

johnny010

Finally, Scott Miller, author of “Medallic Art of the American Numismatic Society, 1865-2014” donates time at the ANS in NY. He was able to locate the plaster cast used create my coin:

The cast was not properly logged in their records.

This is as far as I’ve gotten with the trail.

johnny010

Bob13

Interesting for sure. Thanks for following up!

Sapyx

Interesting indeed. So we still don't really know the who, when and why of this issue, neither the original design nor the actual striking in gold, nor the intended meaning of the various inscriptions and images. And without that information, finding out the mintages in various metals would also prove difficult.

I do agree with the 2017 article's conclusion that the original design must date from some time at or before 1922, when the Greeks still had some hope of "Constantinople" becoming Greek or at least not becoming "Istanbul", and when the Greek drachma and French franc were still at par. Perhaps "1917" is the design-date, looking forwards to a hypothetical 1922 when all those aspirations would become true.

Bailathacl

Looks like there may be some Masonic imagery at 6 o’clock on the obverse? That cypher between the A and the I….

Sapyx

@Bailathacl said:
Looks like there may be some Masonic imagery at 6 o’clock on the obverse? That cypher between the A and the I….

No, that's the "backwards-looking-euro-symbol" I mentioned way back in my first post. That's the archaic Greek letter sampi, and used in the Greek numeral system to signify the number 900. Thus, alpha-sampi-iota-zeta is Greek-numeral notation for the number 1,917 - or, presumably, the date 1917.

johnny010

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CaptHenway

@Sapyx said:
Interesting indeed. So we still don't really know the who, when and why of this issue, neither the original design nor the actual striking in gold, nor the intended meaning of the various inscriptions and images. And without that information, finding out the mintages in various metals would also prove difficult.

I do agree with the 2017 article's conclusion that the original design must date from some time at or before 1922, when the Greeks still had some hope of "Constantinople" becoming Greek or at least not becoming "Istanbul", and when the Greek drachma and French franc were still at par. Perhaps "1917" is the design-date, looking forwards to a hypothetical 1922 when all those aspirations would become true.

Thanks.

I am still hoping to learn more about them. I received very little feedback from the article.

TD