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PillarDollarCollector

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pruebas

I don't have images since I don't own the book. But I understand it to be a vanity book showing off the guy's collection. Nothing wrong with that, but don't expect much original scholarship.

PillarDollarCollector

@pruebas said:
I don't have images since I don't own the book. But I understand it to be a vanity book showing off the guy's collection. Nothing wrong with that, but don't expect much original scholarship.

I will pass then.

Abuelo

Has some nice pictures. Some of the coins are quite challenging. But as of now my favourite source on Carlos y Juana still are papers by Ken Ponterio and Cori Sedwick. Of course Nesmith, but that one has to be updated.

pruebas

You can learn a lot by looking a photos, so I don't want to discourage you. As @Abuelo said, the book is about the Mexican coinage of Carlos y Juana, (roughly) 1535-1570s.

PillarDollarCollector

It will be a goal for next month thanks guys.

PillarDollarCollector

Just purchased my copy will find out tomorrow how good the book is.

PillarDollarCollector

@pruebas said:
You can learn a lot by looking a photos, so I don't want to discourage you. As @Abuelo said, the book is about the Mexican coinage of Carlos y Juana, (roughly) 1535-1570s.

Yeah I think I will like looking at the images very much.

pruebas

C&J is a great area in which to collect. And we need more expertise in this area.

I hope you will like these coins and start to collect them. Very historic (the first real coins of the entire Americas) and quite a value still.

PillarDollarCollector

Thanks for the encouragement and help much appreciated.

WCC

@pruebas said:
C&J is a great area in which to collect. And we need more expertise in this area.

I hope you will like these coins and start to collect them. Very historic (the first real coins of the entire Americas) and quite a value still.

I consider the 4R fairly priced, relative to other Latin America colonial coins. Not really scarce except as die varieties. I also infer that not that many really care about the relatively minor differences between the "early" and "late" series.

Abuelo

@WCC I think the differences between the early and late series are huge ! Not just in terms of rarity but design. That said, I do not know that there are many dedicated collectors in this area that is (to me) one of the most interesting of Mexican numismatics.

pruebas

@Abuelo said:
@WCC I think the differences between the early and late series are huge ! Not just in terms of rarity but design. That said, I do not know that there are many dedicated collectors in this area that is (to me) one of the most interesting of Mexican numismatics.

I totally agree with @Abuelo. The difference between early and late C&J is huge. Even the differences between assayers and left/right placement are large enough to be collected. And over assayers as well.

What isn't so huge are the different dies among each particular assayer, but some even collect those. And the different and strange symbols in the legends on the different coins.

This is a VERY interesting series and I am surprised it isn't more widely collected/studied.

PillarDollarCollector

Book arrived looks like an awesome book glad I purchased it much better than I expected it to be.

pruebas

Fantastic! Maybe I should get it???

PillarDollarCollector

@pruebas said:
Fantastic! Maybe I should get it???

I would say yes. The author is a medical doctor and has put great effort into this book. I am very happy with it. The images are stunning.

I purchased mine off amazon next day delivery.

PillarDollarCollector

Authors credentials are as follows MA, MD, and MBA. He has a lot of knowledge and you can tell by the level of passion he put into this book.

PillarDollarCollector

It's about passion and the beauty of each coin. Like he says he passed on many expensive coins and is simply happy to own the ones he felt comfortable buying. The photographs are beautiful and he also goes into great detail. He is friends with Daniel Sedwick and has been for over 30 years.

WCC

@pruebas said:

@Abuelo said:
@WCC I think the differences between the early and late series are huge ! Not just in terms of rarity but design. That said, I do not know that there are many dedicated collectors in this area that is (to me) one of the most interesting of Mexican numismatics.

I totally agree with @Abuelo. The difference between early and late C&J is huge. Even the differences between assayers and left/right placement are large enough to be collected. And over assayers as well.

What isn't so huge are the different dies among each particular assayer, but some even collect those. And the different and strange symbols in the legends on the different coins.

This is a VERY interesting series and I am surprised it isn't more widely collected/studied.

You are both writing as one who has a high interest in the coinage. It's my inference that those who want a type (overwhelmingly most buyers) almost never care about the difference, don't consider it significant, and find the 'early" series too expensive for the difference.

I mostly only collect pillars now. The typical buyer of pillars also seems to be a type collector, outside of the Mexico 8R. They also don't care about the difference between mints (mostly the mint mark). Since type collectors want better coins, there are more collectors of Mexico, and so few better pillar 4R exist from other mints, this is also why these coins could also be considered "under appreciated" but it's unlikely to change much either.

The Mexico Carlos & Joanna 4R is not scarce, though this must be evaluated in the context that the coins don't have dates. So the rarity of the 4R needs to be compared to all Mexico pillar 4R dates combined. It's scarcer absolutely, but I doubt there is that much of a difference in better grades of nicer coins, say AU and above. The combined NGC and PCGS counts are not low and I doubt most have been graded either.

Only die variety collectors are usually going to buy more than one which is the other reason I don't think this denomination is really underpriced, versus pillar 4R or what else the same money can buy in other Latin coinage.

The other denominations are noticeably scarcer, in my experience. If I were to collect this coinage, I am a lot more interested in Peru or the few coins from Santo Domingo and Panama because these are rare. I don't have the budget for more than I collect now.

Abuelo

You are absolutely correct @WCC I am absolutely interested on these coins and have spent many hours reading on them and find them fascinating. I consider them (and those collecting Spanish coinage will absolutely disagree with me) that these are the only mediaeval coins minted in the Americas (waiting for the noise form the public). But yes, you can spend the money of a nice German car just trying to figure out assayer F coinage and you will get very low quality pieces... I am still amazed by the differences between European and Aztec castles in the coins. the different figures surrounding the obverse, the overassayers... Any way.

WCC

I'm not knocking these coins, just explaining why I don't think the 4R underpriced, compared to the coins collectors are likely to buy as alternatives. The other denominations (aside from the 8R) I think are a better value.

After I wrote my post, I checked the NGC and PCGS census. There are about 60 (yes, SIXTY) "late" series 4R in the NGC census though only one at PCGS graded MS. (One MS-65 which must be a unicorn.) Many more AU too. "Early" series noticeably lower (a fraction) but still quite a bit more than I would have thought.

Many of these might not be that nice, but the number isn't low. It's a lot more than all pillar 4R combined covering around 80 different dates from four mints. My assumption is that there must have been a hoard. Heritage has an MS-62 4R for sale at the ANA next month and it's a nice one.

MrEureka

I think they're a great thing to collect, especially the early series. I recently had the chance to put some great ones in my own collection and struggled to fight off the urge. Too many projects already!

Abuelo

@MrEureka said:
I think they're a great thing to collect, especially the early series. I recently had the chance to put some great ones in my own collection and struggled to fight off the urge. Too many projects already!

Very likely other collectors benefited by your decision

MrEureka

@Abuelo said:

@MrEureka said:
I think they're a great thing to collect, especially the early series. I recently had the chance to put some great ones in my own collection and struggled to fight off the urge. Too many projects already!

Very likely another collector benefited by your decision

I'm sure a few did!