sold a graded coin last year, it's on ebay now but wildly toned - in the same slab

960Coins · March 4, 2013 6:56AM

What's the best way to handle this: there are a couple of sellers on ebay occasionally selling wildly, obviously artificially-toned 960 reis. They sometimes unfortunately sell for quite a bit. Now, however, I checked new listings over the weekend and see a familiar coin, a graded sea-salvaged UNC 960 Reis I sold on ebay last October being resold, same certification number (2778019-005), apparently the same slab. But the coin has gone from the typical washed-out sea-salvaged & cleaned look to artificial, heat-induced toned with golds and reds and purples. It's either been dramatically toned inside the slab.... .... ... or it's been carefully cracked out, toned and reinserted into the slab, or the slab is counterfeit, or most likely as pointed out below, gassed inside the slab..

What's the best way to deal with this? NGC or ebay?

This (taken before slabbing):

Now looks like this:

And this:

Now looks like this:

Andres · March 4, 2013 7:14AM

I think somebody has the knowledge to crack it open and reseal the holder without apparent damage.
I dont think eBay cares , but NGC should care , obviously their holders are not full proof.
I dont think there is a law, that prohibits toning or cleaning coins for that matter and then sell them for a profit.
just my 2cents

coinpictures · March 4, 2013 7:43AM

To the OP:

Is the selling party the person you sold the coin to? If not, you don't know how many times it has changed hands or who actually did the toning; it may not be the current owner.

Is the seller's inventory indicative of other AT coins?

960Coins · March 4, 2013 7:54AM

<< To the OP:

Is the selling party the person you sold the coin to? If not, you don't know how many times it has changed hands or who actually did the toning; it may not be the current owner.

Is the seller's inventory indicative of other AT coins? >>

As was stated, simply toning and reselling isn't a big deal, no fraud happening there (except when it's listed as "original colors"), no laws necessarily broken. Toning and re-inserting into the slab or faking the slab is a little different though.

To answer your questions: The buyer and seller are different account, but both are located in the same small (56,000 pop) suburb of a major city.

There have been other items in the past indicative of artificial toning, such as this one:

Currently there is one other item being sold that looks similar:

coinpictures · March 4, 2013 8:05AM

Ugh. Yep, it's a shake & bake artist... *shudder*

960Coins · March 4, 2013 8:07AM

Hah, NGC's response is that it must have been cleaned improperly and has toned inside the slab. From stark clean (the way I purchased it and sold it) to that toned in less than 5 months.

Oh well. I guess it's possible...

MacCrimmon · March 4, 2013 9:09AM

<< Hah, NGC's response is that it must have been cleaned improperly and has toned inside the slab. From stark clean (the way I purchased it and sold it) to that toned in less than 5 months.

Oh well. I guess it's possible... >>

The slab looks to have been wrapped in a thick blanket of Taco Bell napkins.

ormandh · March 4, 2013 10:55AM

Sorry to be crude, but when I read this post I almost spit my coffee out of my nose just thinking about the old commercial about Shake N' Bake. You know the one where the girl said "It's Shake N' Bake and I helped!"

I guess you had to be in my brain to appreciate the humor...

-Dan

Pokermandude · March 4, 2013 11:14AM

I believe this is an example of "gassing" a coin while it remains in the non-air tight slab.

Zohar · March 4, 2013 11:23AM

Ignoring what was done to the coin, color is quite nice!

1960NYGiants · March 4, 2013 12:36PM

I wonder if a low temp long duration bake with some additive could have toned it in the holder?

I suppose one could buy the thing and crack it out and see if it is white where the tabs make contact with the coin.

Dennis88 · March 4, 2013 1:14PM

Ask the seller for an edge image of the slab (long sides). These NGC slabs are pretty easy to open and reseal but evidence will show on the sides in the form of whiter instead of clear pastic.

okracer · March 5, 2013 5:35AM

At least the markings on the coins look to be the same, implying they are the same coin.........

Timbuk3 · March 5, 2013 5:45AM

Thanks for the heads-up !!!

RobP · March 5, 2013 10:06AM

Is there any published data on what happens to the coin if heated to various temperatures inside the slab? You have potentially reactive ingredients sealed inside a vessel. Heating will release volatiles from slab, insert, label and label ink, meaning there would be no need to crack out the coin and replace it later. Or what about putting it in a microwave oven for a few seconds? The metal would heat up rapidly in these circumstances without the need to remove the coin.

MacCrimmon · March 5, 2013 11:05AM

<< Is there any published data on what happens to the coin if heated to various temperatures inside the slab? You have potentially reactive ingredients sealed inside a vessel. Heating will release volatiles from slab, insert, label and label ink, meaning there would be no need to crack out the coin and replace it later. Or what about putting it in a microwave oven for a few seconds? The metal would heat up rapidly in these circumstances without the need to remove the coin. >>

Weimar White ran some testing a decade ago, and published them in CoinWorld

All you need is an oven, some sulfur compounds, etc. (an old guy in Texas told me formaldehyde was problematic for brilliant silver coins; specifically, some of the old coin albums contained a formaldehyde organic). Anyway, those slabs are gas-permeable, and myriad toning oxidation culprits can get through, especially with the excitation of "heat".

A certain Forum member was busted years ago for trying to tone Morgans and Washington 25c, en slabbe.

northcoin · March 5, 2013 4:50PM

<< 

<< Is there any published data on what happens to the coin if heated to various temperatures inside the slab? You have potentially reactive ingredients sealed inside a vessel. Heating will release volatiles from slab, insert, label and label ink, meaning there would be no need to crack out the coin and replace it later. Or what about putting it in a microwave oven for a few seconds? The metal would heat up rapidly in these circumstances without the need to remove the coin. >>

Weimar White ran some testing a decade ago, and published them in CoinWorld

All you need is an oven, some sulfur compounds, etc. (an old guy in Texas told me formaldehyde was problematic for brilliant silver coins; specifically, some of the old coin albums contained a formaldehyde organic). Anyway, those slabs are gas-permeable, and myriad toning oxidation culprits can get through, especially with the excitation of "heat".

A certain Forum member was busted years ago for trying to tone Morgans and Washington 25c, en slabbe. >>

Thanks for the link. That was very educational to learn about toning in the slab. Your link also directed me to an old thread here that had some 30 pages of posts before it was eventually locked five years ago. it is the apology of a confessed coin doctor and the forums' reactions to the apology. I did not read all 30 pages of posts but there seems to have been a rather heated discussion about whether the confessed doctor should disclose his methods. The one response I did see from him was his statement that everything he did he learned right here (the PCGS forums). From some of the less forgiving responders including TDN it sounds like some of the doctored coins ended up in PCGS slabs and certain Registry Sets came into question, at least the Coin Doctor's own set though admittedly I did not read all the pages to verify whose sets. Maybe some day we will see a book titled, "Confessions of a Coin Doctor" with all the details for how it was/is done. Oh- here is a link to locked thread:

Confessions of a Coin Doctor Confessions of a Coin Doctor

TwoKopeiki · March 6, 2013 12:39AM

I've seen AT raw coins being sold by this guy before, but this is the first time I've seen him gas the slab.

As a collector of toned coins, I've spent a lot of time understanding the process, color progressions, and techniques used for applying artificial patina. Just as I collected counterfeit 8 reales and learned how they were produced to be able to spot the fakes, I have toned quite a few junk silver coins to understand what the telltale signs of different techniques are. A few years back I wanted to have a peace of mind when it came to buying slabbed toners in TPG holders, so I submitted a few orders to both NGC and PCGS containing AT coins created with different techniques and having different tell-tale signs of AT. As an outcome of that test, I no longer buy NGC-graded toners if I can't inspect the coin in-hand.

sold a graded coin last year, it's on ebay now but wildly toned - in the same slab

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