Time for another "Guess the Grades - Win some $CASH$" Giveaway ---GRADES ARE IN---WINNER I

TwoKopeiki · April 6, 2012 11:01AM

Before I leave for South America in a couple of days, I'm going to ship a submission of 9 coins to PCGS. All of them 8 Reales, of course

Most of them I've posted before and for some even provided my own grade opinions. Some had NGC grades, as well, but keep in mind that the 2 take very different things in consideration when assigning a grade.

So, here's the contest:

Take a look at the two sets of images provided (one to show the color, another to show surfaces) and take a guess at what each would grade at PCGS. When grades get posted, I will look at the difference between each guess and actual assigned grade and will add those differences up for an individual score for each person. Whoever gets the lowest score wins $50 via PayPal gift to spend on anything your heart desires. If you don't have PayPal, I'll gladly mail you a MO.

One tiny caveat that you might remember from my previous GTG Giveaways - if a coin bodybags it's worth 0 points, so correctly guessing a bodybag can really give you an edge. Having said that, as always I'm hoping for no bodybags coming back.

Good luck!!!

*** GRADES ARE IN ***

*** CONGRATULATIONS ROBKOOL!!!!! ***

#1: 1780 Mo-FF Mexico 8 Reales - NGC 55 --------> PCGS Genuine - AU Details (92 - Cleaned)

#2: 1800 Mo-FM Mexico 8 Reales - RAW --------> PCGS AU58

#3: 1801 Mo-FM Mexico 8 Reales - NGC 55 --------> PCGS XF45

#4: 1804 Mo-TH Mexico 8 Reales - RAW --------> PCGS AU50

#5: 1806 Mo-TH Mexico 8 Reales - NGC 58 --------> PCGS AU50

#6: Another 1806 Mo-TH Mexico 8 Reales - NGC 58 --------> PCGS AU53

#7: 1816 Mexico Mo-JJ 8 Reales - RAW --------> PCGS Genuine - UNC Details (95 - Scratch or Rim Nick)

#8: 1819 Mo-JJ Mexico 8 Reales - RAW --------> PCGS AU53

#9: 1820 Zs-AG Mexico Zacatecas 8 Reales - NGC 55 --------> PCGS Genuine - AU Details (92 - Cleaned)

Pokermandude · April 6, 2012 2:43PM

Thanks for the chance! This contest seems much harder than the last one.

1780 body bag cleaned/hairlines
1800 AU50
1801 AU53
1804 AU53
#5 1806 AU58
#6 1806 EF40
1816 bodybag
1819 AU53
1820 AU55

CollectingMachine · April 6, 2012 5:56PM

1. BB
2. 45
3. 55
4. 62
5. 63
6. 61
7. BB
8. BB
9. 62

Thanks

raycyca · April 7, 2012 1:47AM

1. Genuine (scratches)
2. VF 35
3. AU 50
4. AU 50
5. MS 63
6. XF 45
7. Genuine( surface damage)
8. VF 35
9. AU 55

DeiGratia · April 7, 2012 3:39AM

1. BB-S
2. AU55
3. AU53
4. AU53
5. AU50
6. XF45
7. AU55
8. AU53
9. AU55

lasvegasteddy · April 7, 2012 6:41AM

1)63
2)53
3)55
4)55
5)58
6)55
7)genuine
8)62
9)63

sweet examples 1st off and thanks for the giveaway n chance too...

MsMorrisine · April 8, 2012 5:36AM

I have no idea how these grade. I don't know what a "MS strike" looks like, so I have to guess how much is wear.

So, this is probably way off.

1. BB XF Details
2. 35
3. 45
4. 45
5. 50
6. 35
7. BB XF Details
8. BB VF Details
9. 40

coinkat · April 8, 2012 7:38AM

1780- 92- Cleaning ot altered surfaces
1800- AU53
1801- EF45
1804- AU50
1806- AU53
SECOND 1806- AU55
1816- This is difficult without seeing in hand- could 92 because of the planchet - these planchets are not good to begin with so I would hope that is wrong. AU50
1819- AU53
1820- AU58 AND ms 61 would not surprise me

marcmoish · April 8, 2012 12:50PM

#1 MS62
#2 AU55
#3 EF45
#4 AU53
#5 AU55
#6 MS61
#7 Unc Dtls Surf Dmg (Personally I like it and can see it as MS60)
#8 AU58
#9 MS62

TwoKopeiki · April 8, 2012 10:37PM

Some interesting grade opinions so far - keep 'em coming! The package went out to PCGS today and if all goes well, should be entered into the system Th/Fr. 20-30 days afterwards the grades will be up and the winner announced. I will accept edits until the grade is announced, so if you're easily influenced and want to see what others think - you still have a chance to update your guess.

pmac · April 9, 2012 1:01AM

1780 - Gennie
1800 - 45
1801 - 50
1804 - 53
#1 1806 - 58
#2 1806 - 45
1816 - 55
1819 - 55
1820 - 55

GsaMan · April 9, 2012 10:18AM

1780-EF details
1800-40
1801-45
1804-50
1806-53
1806-40
1816-50
1819-45
1820-55
This is just taking a guess to win.

twistoffaith · April 10, 2012 10:22PM

1. BB
2. 50
3. 55
4. 60
5. 63
6. 61
7. BB
8. BB
9. 63

steveben · April 11, 2012 1:23AM

total guesses here. these are not my series for sure...but here goes...without having looked any anyone else's responses:

1. 92, cleaned
2. xf45
3. au55
4. au50
5. xf45
6. xf40
7. 95, rim damage or scratch
8. xf45
9. ms62

TwoKopeiki · April 16, 2012 4:28AM

Bump!

robkool · April 17, 2012 7:02AM

1. Gen (cleaned)...
2. MS61...
3. AU55...
4. AU55...
5. AU53...
6. MS62...
7. Gen (scratch/damage)...
8. AU58...
9. AU55...

coinman23885 · April 19, 2012 2:08PM

I don't have any of these or experience with grading them, but it's worth a shot.

Coin 1 - genuine scratched
Coin 2 - VF20
Coin 3- VF25
Coin 4 - EF45
Coin 5 - AU 50
Coin 6 - F12
Coin 7 - Genuine damaged
Coin 8 - VF30
Coin 9 - AU 50

coinman23885 · April 19, 2012 2:13PM

<< I don't have any of these or experience with grading them, but it's worth a shot.

Coin 1 - genuine scratched
Coin 2 - VF20
Coin 3- VF25
Coin 4 - EF45
Coin 5 - AU 50
Coin 6 - F12
Coin 7 - Genuine damaged; if accepted as normal planchet flaw then I say AU50
Coin 8 - VF30
Coin 9 - AU 50 >>

TwoKopeiki · April 19, 2012 2:30PM

You guys are as generous as you are brutal.

Best case scenario for this submission based on highest individual guesses is:

1. MS-63
2. MS-61
3. AU-55
4. MS-62
5. MS-63
6. MS-62
7. AU-55
8. MS-62
9. MS-63

Worst case so far:

1. BB
2. VF-20
3. VF-25
4. XF-45
5. XF-45
6. F-12
7. BB
8. BB
9. XF-40

As always the case, truth lies somewhere in between. Keep 'em coming!

Zohar · April 20, 2012 3:07AM

Will give this a shot:

1. MS-61
2. AU-58
3. AU-58
4. MS-61
5. MS-61
6. AU-58
7. AU-53
8. MS-61
9. MS-63

TwoKopeiki · April 24, 2012 11:08PM

Bump - about 3 weeks or so until grades are posted and cash is dispensed

TwoKopeiki · May 5, 2012 5:28PM

If all goes well, another week to go.

Get those guesses in! Easy money! (or is it?

)

IrishMist · May 5, 2012 6:57PM

I also have no idea how to grade these beauties but ( a very rough ) guess is as follows:

1. BB
2. VF 25
3. AU 50
4. AU 58
5. AU 55
6. VF 30
7. BB
8. XF 40
9. MS 60

There are some awesome coins in that lot Roman. Well done for picking them up.

TwoKopeiki · May 7, 2012 8:55AM

Grades are up.

No more entries while I compile the winner.

One upset, two long shots didn't pay off. Overall still happy. NGC will holder the rest.

TwoKopeiki · May 7, 2012 9:27AM

Calculating the scores now.

One coin that made no sense to me, and there appears to be one in every submission as of late, is the 1820 Zacatecas that was previously in an NGC 55 holder. I believed it to be a lock for the grade, but PCGS body bagged it as "Cleaned". Nobody guessed it, so no clear winner yet. Crunching the numbers in excel now.

TwoKopeiki · May 7, 2012 9:44AM

Robkool had the smallest absolute difference, followed closely by pokerman!

I also submitted this pillar as a part of the order that came back AU55 1763/2 (previously in an NGC 58 holder)

pruebas · May 7, 2012 9:46AM

In my opinion, NGC was closer to the mark on these. From this sample, I don't feel PCGS is good at this series.

The Pillar too.

TwoKopeiki · May 7, 2012 9:53AM

<< In my opinion, NGC was closer to the mark on these. From this sample, I don't feel PCGS is good at this series.

The Pillar too. >>

1801 was overgraded at AU55. Perhaps it turned in the holder, but I was hoping for an 50 grade.
First 1806, in my opinion, is a 53. Not nearly enough luster for a 58.
Second 1806 should have been a 58. PCGS ducked points for either the strike weakness or the breaks in luster on the obverse.

I agree on the pillar. There's absolutely no reason that I can see it's not a 58.

Bodybags will go to NGC and will get put back into the original (or close to) holders. I'm guessing a 62 grade for the 1816.

Bottom line, though, even with a drop in grades, the resale value went up in PCGS plastic. Except for the 1801, which will probably get returned to an NGC slab, as well.

pruebas · May 7, 2012 10:08AM

<< Bottom line, though, even with a drop in grades, the resale value went up in PCGS plastic. Except for the 1801, which will probably get returned to an NGC slab, as well. >>

Doubtful. These are not US coins.

Roman, lay off the Kool Aid and save your money.

TwoKopeiki · May 7, 2012 10:20AM

<< 

<< Bottom line, though, even with a drop in grades, the resale value went up in PCGS plastic. Except for the 1801, which will probably get returned to an NGC slab, as well. >>

Doubtful. These are not US coins.

Roman, lay off the Kool Aid and save your money.

>>

While these are not US coins, US collectors (or collectors in US) are the best market for these for the time being. And after tracking auction sales for a while I can tell you with certainty that if I was to sell any of the AU examples today I would get more than what I paid in fees even with a slight drop in grades.

I drink the Kool Aid because the current market drinks it and because of the registry sets that keep me focused. And while I do enjoy the ownership and research, I know that at some point I will have to part with the collection. At which time the holder will play a part in the final price, unless market conditions change.

coinkat · May 7, 2012 10:41AM

Well... the 1820 I thought would have graded

TwoKopeiki · May 7, 2012 10:52AM

<< Well... the 1820 I thought would have graded >>

Yup. Like I said, one of those in every submission

I remember when my dark and crusty VF35 1816 Chihuahua 8 Reales came back as cleaned. I had a nice laugh about that one.

pruebas · May 7, 2012 11:02AM

Not to diss our hosts, but perhaps there is a reason there are significantly fewer world coins in PCGS holders.

robkool · May 7, 2012 5:34PM

Thanks for the kool giveaway Roman...

I'm surprised the 1820 did not grade, as far as the rest of the 8 Reales, pcgs has always been very tight on grades, especially on NGC graded coins through personal experience both US, & foreign.

TwoKopeiki · May 7, 2012 10:45PM

<< Thanks for the kool giveaway Roman...

I'm surprised the 1820 did not grade, as far as the rest of the 8 Reales, pcgs has always been very tight on grades, especially on NGC graded coins through personal experience both US, & foreign.

>>

Congrats again! You should be receiving the PayPal gift shortly.

<< Not to diss our hosts, but perhaps there is a reason there are significantly fewer world coins in PCGS holders. >>

There absolutely is a reason. Multiple reasons, I would say. Increased fee due to the Secure Plus grading, incredibly long turn-around times for World coins (50 business days for an economy submission currently), lack of experts in particular series that results in the same standard used for US coins to be applied and mis-attribution / body bagging that comes from not knowing the specifics of a certain type / issue, historic treatment of World coin collectors as "second rate citizens" (lack of a separate quarterly special is a good example)... Take your pick.

There are inconsistencies with grading on both sides. One company is way more forgiving and the other is rather tight with grading (at least in 8 Reales space). I guess it also ties with a personal preference. I guess the question is would you prefer your coins in an undergraded or overgraded holder? Look at the example in this submission. There were 2 1806 dates in this submission. NGC gave them both AU58. In my mind, you should look at an AU58 and see an UNC coin with full luster and just a touch of rub at high points. The first one has great details, color, and not much wear, but the luster is very muted (as can be seen on the second set of images). AU53 would be my opinion based on luster and wear. Now the second one is a gorgeous coin with a definitely AU58 reverse that's simply dripping with luster. That reverse glows when you bounce light off of it! The obverse is another story. I would say 70-75% is lustrous, more wear on the bust than you would see on a 58, and a weak strike that PCGS usually takes in consideration when assigning a grade to circulated pieces. I would grade the second one AU58 reverse / AU53 obverse for an overall grade of AU55.

Things that do keep me coming back to PCGS include the holder (clear holder is way better than the white NGC one), registry (keeps me focused on a series, plus a pedigree once the set is complete is a nice touch), community (these forums rock), and a consistent buyer's premium when selling off upgraded pieces of my collection.

DeiGratia · May 8, 2012 12:26AM

This is exactly the reason why I don't play the slabbing game.

Was the 1800 I sold you an AU58 - YUP
Was the 1816 I sold you a BB - NOPE
Was the 1813 I sold you a AU53 - NOPE

If you notice, some of the posts start out by stating a disclaimer: "I don't know how to grade these...."
This is an indication that you can't grade 8 Reales with US Coin Standards.

Now if we had Rick Ponterio grading these...........

RANT ON

What gets me is the shift from collectors to investors and the abundance of laziness that abounds.
People don't want to spend the time to learn coins anymore.
It's all about the game of sending them off to get a coin entombed and if it gets BB'ed or you're not happy with the grade, sending them off to get entombed by another etc etc.
The never ending cycle is what kills me and you guys all pay for it and wait for it.

Here is an example from my sale:

User1: Hey how much for the coin XXX?
Me: $200
User1: Hmmm.. I don't know these coins very well. I think I'll pass
Me: OK
User1: Hey Roman said your coins are good, I'll take it !!
Me: Sorry it's sold
User1: Hey do you have more coins for sale?
Me: What are you looking for?
User1: I don't really know.

RANT OFF

steveben · May 8, 2012 12:56AM

wow, i really don't see why the last one came back cleaned. i don't agree with that grade at all.

Zohar · May 8, 2012 6:22AM

Seriously Roman, I dont think they got it right on a couple of them (were too harsh). These are very nice pieces.

TwoKopeiki · May 8, 2012 7:02AM

<< Seriously Roman, I dont think they got it right on a couple of them (were too harsh). These are very nice pieces. >>

My assessment before sending these in was pretty much a full grade over what I received, except for the 1800 and 1819.

Tuition paid. Next submission will be better.

SYRACUSIAN · May 12, 2012 4:12AM

I guess it also ties with a personal preference. I guess the question is would you prefer your coins in an undergraded or overgraded holder?

In an overgraded one, no question about it.

Regarding PCGS/NGC, although I can't speak for these series, it's one thing to downgrade a clean cut AU55 to AU50, and another to Genuine 92, AU details.
Roman, I disagree with you on a few points, but no need to bring them up. Let's just say that pruebas covered me already.

Robkool congrats on the two genuine predictions. Sorry for the late reply, I was waiting for the giveaway to be over. I can never grade these, so even cash won't lure me to make a fool of myself.

Time for another &quot;Guess the Grades - Win some $CASH$&quot; Giveaway ---GRADES ARE IN---WINNER I

Comments

Time for another "Guess the Grades - Win some $CASH$" Giveaway ---GRADES ARE IN---WINNER I