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Thread Title: Any comments about the recent award change for Modern sets?
Created On Monday July 02, 2012 7:59 AM


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MCMLVTopps
Collector

Posts: 1735
Joined: Aug 2005

Monday July 02, 2012 7:59 AM

So, this year PSA decided to change the rules for Modern sets. In the past, Collector's who attained 95% (or better) in both Vintage and Modern would allow them to be recognized as best set, either basic or master. The rule change is that Vintage sets remain at 95%, while Modern (1972 or later) require a 100% completion to attain best set status in the award domain.

I happened to have two sets that are impacted by this change, one which has a long way to go, the other in the low 90 percentile, with almost no competition to speak of. Depending upon a recent PSA submission, it is feasible that I will reach very close to 95% and should be able to get to 95% within a reasonable time frame. The rub is that it is almost impossible to reach 100%...graded needs are like one or two cards in the POP report, and searching for raw in the past few years has resulted in no advancement.

So, I was wondering if others have been impacted by this decision. Keep in mind that if you get to 99.9%, you are still not gonna find yourself in the award arena. I am fully aware we don't necessarily collect to get an award, but it is a nice way of sharing the accomplishment. If this weren't the case, then why have awards at all?

I have no idea why the rule was changed, but I know in my case, I simply cannot reach 100%. Seems to me that the rule shouldh've been left alone, 95% for both Vintage and Modern.

Anyone else in this "situation"? Comments?

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epatmythes
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Posts: 1269
Joined: Apr 2009

Monday July 02, 2012 8:55 AM

I was able to get the one main Basic Player Set I was working on, that won Best Of awards the past 2 years, to 100% this year to keep my award streak going. I really like checking out the Basic Player sets, and in baseball, I know I saw at least 3 or 4 really great sets... that had Best Of award streaks going in the 3-5 year range... that didn't get awards this year because of the 100% change.

My opinion is simply, that sucks for them & I don't like it. I get why PSA did it... tougher rules to get recognition equals more cards being submitted (at least, theoretically)... but its still kind of a slap in the face to the few with exceptional sets who had to see their streak end for such a rule change.

-------------------------

Eric
ETP - Da Yooper Collection
Buying & Trading for PSA 10 Albert Pujols, PSA 8 Hank Aaron & PSA 10 Brett Favre cards

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Publius
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Posts: 1329
Joined: Apr 2007

Monday July 02, 2012 9:04 AM

I hate it. I was 99.47% complete on a set Ive had an award for since 2007, and received no award because someone got a card with a population of TWO added to the registry. I thought there had to be at least three of a card graded to add to the registry? Plus you figure they could round up for a brother. Sucks.

-------------------------
My Steve Largent Master Set

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MCMLVTopps
Collector

Posts: 1735
Joined: Aug 2005

Monday July 02, 2012 9:19 AM

I own the Luis Tiant master set (as well as the basic set). Tiant was always a favorite of mine from growing up in the Boston area during his time with the Red Sox...

As the Tiant Master set composition sits, I am of the opinion that nobody will ever reach 100%...why? Because I own 3-4, 1 of 1s...not just 1 of 1s, but the ONLY ones graded by PSA. While I am sitting at 87.50%, I cannot reach 100%, 95% might be doable, but, the cards are simply not there that I need, and I've been trying to put this thing together for years. No raw and the one or two graded cards are never seen on eBay or anywhere else for sale.

Publius...I've had cards added that were 1 of 1s, so that 3 card rule must not apply.

A recent inquiry to PSA has told me that the change will stand. I am told the "change" is very important to Joe...not sure how to interpret that. Aren't we the collectors in the field trying to complete things? The rationale for the change escapes me. If it was 95% for both last year, what would prompt a change? Aren't changes supposed to be made for the benefit of the collectors, NOT management at PSA?

Perhaps those of us stuck in this "situation" should call Joe and express our concern.

Posts: 70
Joined: Nov 2004

Monday July 02, 2012 12:04 PM

I'm in the same boat, I have two sets that are better than 99% complete and have been getting best set since '06 or '07. I'm not going to toss in a card to be graded 5 or 6 when every other card in my set is 8 or better just to get that last 2 or 3 cards to completion. They need to go back to 95%, or change the dates of what they consider a modern set.

captfisch

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FavreFan1971
Expert Collector

Posts: 2501
Joined: Nov 2004

Monday July 02, 2012 12:22 PM

When were the changes reported to us? How many weeks before the awards?

-------------------------
Die Hard Packer Fan
Working on my All-Time Packer set
Also working on Packer Team sets from 1948 to 1989
Wish I could change my username - I am no longer a Favrefan.
My All Time Packer Set

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epatmythes
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Posts: 1269
Joined: Apr 2009

Monday July 02, 2012 1:28 PM

I believe, but can't say with 100% confidence, but I believe it was announced immediately after the awards last year... and I think Joe also mentioned it at the PSA Luncheon last year as well.

-------------------------

Eric
ETP - Da Yooper Collection
Buying & Trading for PSA 10 Albert Pujols, PSA 8 Hank Aaron & PSA 10 Brett Favre cards

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punchymuffin
Member

Posts: 69
Joined: Jan 2002

Monday July 02, 2012 1:32 PM

-------------------------
1959 Topps baseball registry (master and basic)
1980 Topps baseball registry (master and basic x 2)
1975 Topps baseball registry

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epatmythes
Collector

Posts: 1269
Joined: Apr 2009

Monday July 02, 2012 1:40 PM

Just looking at the Modern Baseball Basic Sets... since that's really in my wheelhouse, as it's just so much more managable and less cost-prohibitive to the Basic & Collector Issues, or god forbid, some of the monstrous modern master sets... got give some love!

Significant Snub Awards
- Wade Boggs Basic Set (156 Cards) - Baseball Nut's Hitting Idol Set (97.44%) - 4 previous awards snapped
- Barry Bonds Basic Set (193 Cards) - Hennyman (99.48%) - So close

- Ken Griffey Jr. Basic Set (221 Cards) - Deadman's Ken Griffey Jr Basic Set (99.10%) - 4 previous awards snapped
- Rickey Henderson Basic Set (175 Cards) - MT's Henderson Basic (99.43%) - 5 previous awards snapped

The Dang That Hurts Award
- Gary Carter Basic Set (70 Cards) - mnolan's gary carter basic set (95.71%) - Was overtaken by another in GPA only (also at 95.71%), string of 6 straight awards snapped

Rules Don't Really Apply Awards (Recognizing those award winning sets... that while they got recognition, possibly didn't deserve it because of PSA's "unchanged" rule that cards won't be added to an existing set until someone owns a graded copy and personally requests it!!!)
- Ryan Braun Basic Set (19 Cards???) - Lambert Collection (100%) - Ignore the fact that the set composite is missing, at least, 3 available cards that should be in the set that did exist well in advance of the deadline... but when you're the only one competing in the set, kind of easy to control the composite

- Anyone winning an award in the Jason Heyward or Stephen Strasburg Basic Set categories (neither composite appears to have been updated with cards of these new generation players in a year or more)

-------------------------

Eric
ETP - Da Yooper Collection
Buying & Trading for PSA 10 Albert Pujols, PSA 8 Hank Aaron & PSA 10 Brett Favre cards

Edited: Monday July 02, 2012 at 1:48 PM by epatmythes

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MCMLVTopps
Collector

Posts: 1735
Joined: Aug 2005

Monday July 02, 2012 2:21 PM

It would be interesting to know how many sets have now been eliminated (that were previously included at the 95% rule) from award status. I wonder what the reasoning was for the change, and as much as I try to figure out the rationale, nothing comes to mind. I have not a remote clue why Joe would want to do this, realizing it would impact many collectors.

In my particular Master set, the POPs for a few cards are in the 2s, and one card has a POP of 1. The grades are a bit dismal, the Ovenca Venezuelan card has a POP of 2 - 4s. I was hoping not to be bothered with that card, but, if I want to persue the award level, I have no choice. AND, the only PSA 4 I've seen has an outrageous price of $300.00.

Ironcially, the other Master set I'm working on includes a 1 of 1 (only one graded) that the #1 guy needs to reach 100%. I own that card !!

I guess my biggest heartburn here is the actual availability of the cards I need in these two Master sets, either raw, or PSA graded. Yes, I've searched SGC to crack out, but there just hasn't been much out there in well over 3 years.

So, I either get really jazzed about this and call Joe to see if I can explain what he's done to collectors, or just stay quiet, maybe sell and just get out of the whole collecting thing. There was absolutely no need to change this rule, but change it has. True enough, it's just a nebulous little award thing, but it is nice to share an accomplishment with others.

If anyone can figure out why the change was made, or has a pretty strong opinion, I'd love to hear it.

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bking
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Posts: 3296
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Monday July 02, 2012 2:24 PM

<<

If anyone can figure out why the change was made, or has a pretty strong opinion, I'd love to hear it. >>

I think you answered your own question in your initial paragraphs. This change will drive the award chasers to a. find and submit more raw items, and b. chase the fewer extant examples even harder, driving more people to submit their lower-grade items.

-------------------------
----------------------
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
----------------------

Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq

Edited: Monday July 02, 2012 at 2:27 PM by bking

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punchymuffin
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Joined: Jan 2002

Monday July 02, 2012 2:32 PM

I've been waiting for someone to make this post!! While I ,too, became a "victim" of this recent change and am not overly thrilled about it I can see why PSA would choose to adopt it.

After 12 years of collecting, my 1980 Topps set finally took the top spot at 100% completion even though it was such a tight race with the other guy it wasn't a sure thing! After all of these years I just wanted SOME kind of recognition for my 1980 set so I picked up a couple of "variation" cards and published the 1980 master set with just 2 cards short at 99.47. Like several others out there, since it is a 1980 set and NOT 100 complete it didn't get squat even though nobody else is even close to it!

So why did PSA make the change?!? It's about MONEY, of course!! Now, you have to 100% complete for 1980 and newer or 95% for 1979 and older. Anybody just outside of those percentages will be forced to pick up "filler" cards at lower grades and or/raw submit lesser condition cards just to get over the hump.......IF you are looking for that recognition that is! It actually makes good business sense for PSA so I won't be shocked if they don't change back to the way it used to be. In fact, I am actually surprised it took PSA that long to come up with the idea!! I remember thinking back in 2005 when there was a race between three of us that whoever got to 100% SHOULD get the recognition REGARDLESS of GPA because that person would have spent the extra money to go after those last few cards!

-------------------------
1959 Topps baseball registry (master and basic)
1980 Topps baseball registry (master and basic x 2)
1975 Topps baseball registry

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punchymuffin
Member

Posts: 69
Joined: Jan 2002

Monday July 02, 2012 2:35 PM

<<

<<

If anyone can figure out why the change was made, or has a pretty strong opinion, I'd love to hear it. >>

I think you answered your own question in your initial paragraphs. This change will drive the award chasers to a. find and submit more raw items, and b. chase the fewer extant examples even harder, driving more people to submit their lower-grade items. >>

I missed this post while typing my own response--you hit the nail on the head!!

-------------------------
1959 Topps baseball registry (master and basic)
1980 Topps baseball registry (master and basic x 2)
1975 Topps baseball registry

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MCMLVTopps
Collector

Posts: 1735
Joined: Aug 2005

Monday July 02, 2012 2:56 PM

Kinda like the half-point change, money I supose is exactly the driver. On a side note, I sent in my entire 1955 Topps high-grade set and came out with 17 bumps to 8.5 and (believe it or not), got a PSA 8 slabbed to come back as a PSA 9. When I sold, it made a big difference on my bottom line.

BTW, it's 1972 and above for Modern sets.

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jradke4
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Posts: 3331
Joined: Feb 2005

Monday July 02, 2012 3:12 PM

So this really makes sense. My Favre Game Starts Ticket collection won Ticket set of the year in 2010. The next year it won its best of category. This year it wont win anything because it isnt 100% complete. Though the reason its not at 100% is that the four tickets that I dont have in the set have never been graded as of yet by PSA. Turns out I will be sending one of the four in leaving me 3 short but how does this really make sense.

Some one says money...well lets see they dont send out your little paper certificate for winning best of set for the year unless you ask. So does adding a little icon on a webpage cost that much? I know one will say that they want to drive submission...well then to be honest why should I even keep submitting for my Favre Master set? There is no chance anyone will ever get to 100% on that set. Even if someone does it will go away in a month or two. There are potentially at least 10,000 different Favre cards that could be in that master set, taking out less than 1 of 4's or even lower print run cards. If PSA doesnt think its a nice set that some might have 5,000 different cards graded to even give you a little icon after dropping that much in grading fees, I dont see how it is just about the money.

I think it is more that with all the sets on the registry they just dont want to have to judge all that many sets to start with. Its more about time than money. Then again for most of the awards like best of set awards they dont even get judged its by pure math.

But its PSA's world. Unless we all defect and stop submitting cards they will do whatever they want to for the set registry. However, what it will really become is something that really does end up being for only collectors with deep pockets...or for just small sets.

-------------------------
Packers Fan for Life
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's

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bubblebathgirl
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Posts: 2702
Joined: Oct 2009

Monday July 02, 2012 3:18 PM

IMO every set should have to be at 100% in order to get an award. And I do feel strongly about that.

That said, I didn't get into this hobby to get an award for my set(s) - even though I got a bunch this year for my 1979 Topps Baseball basic and master company sets along with a slew of team sets. For me it was about completing them to the best of my abilities ... to learn about the process ... and to participate in the discussions that go on about it all.

As far as the awards go, I think it makes it even more special if one needs to get to 100% in order to receive that recognition. It drives competition and makes the accomplishment more impressive IMO.

I set out to build my 1979 Topps Baseball company set because I saw no one had reached 100% yet with it in high (or low) grade. So I worked very hard, and didn't publish the set until it was at 100% AND in 1st place

If anything, I think PSA needs to go about and update the articles they've written for some of the sets. Again, for the 1979 set, the article is 6 years old ... and still says "In fact, pristine singles are so difficult to uncover that this set remains the only '70s series that no one on the PSA Set Registry has finished." -- I take issue with that!! There are also much tougher cards in the set than the ones they detail in the article, so I know I could shed some light on that as well. I brought this all to the attention of Cosetta and Joe and I guess we'll see if they decide to revamp those articles anytime soon.

But ultimately, IMO, none of this really matters ... I'm happy with my set cause of what I've done with it ... and not because someone decides it deserves an award. I respect that others feel differently ... but I think the old adage of "buy the card not the holder" would work similarly for this situation ... maybe something like "chase the cards not the awards".

-------------------------
My ebay 1978 & 1979 Topps Baseball PSA

Edited: Monday July 02, 2012 at 3:21 PM by bubblebathgirl

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hankcaddy
Veteran

Posts: 710
Joined: Aug 2007

Monday July 02, 2012 4:40 PM

does it really cost them anything to add a flag that your set was the winner in any particular year ?
i think anything above 95% is a real accomplishment, modern , vintage , subset, whatever.

most sets i work on i dont have major competition, so its not really changing how i collect. but it is nice to see the icon added ....

-------------------------
currently collecting baseball of
2004 spx
1989 topps psa 10
1974 topps psa 9

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punchymuffin
Member

Posts: 69
Joined: Jan 2002

Monday July 02, 2012 4:48 PM

.............."collect the cards not the awards". Nice!!!!!

I agree with the articles post and even if they don't get around to updating it in the SMR at least maybe revise it in the heading of the selected set on the registry. You know...........in the paragraph under the "view set composition" heading where at the end it states, "to read an in depth article, click here". At LEAST update that!! Heck, I know they did an article on the 1980 set back in 2008 in SMR and they don't even HAVE such a heading on their registry heading!

For everybody who is upset about the change it could be worse. What if PSA decided that everyone who unpublished a set for whatever reason would lose any and all of its award icons previously issued? The thought being that if every set ever awarded an icon remained on the registry it may give another collector a "target" or a "goal" to strive after on his way up the ladder. I know........I know.....just throwing it out there!

-------------------------
1959 Topps baseball registry (master and basic)
1980 Topps baseball registry (master and basic x 2)
1975 Topps baseball registry

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epatmythes
Collector

Posts: 1269
Joined: Apr 2009

Monday July 02, 2012 5:16 PM

<< So this really makes sense. My Favre Game Starts Ticket collection won Ticket set of the year in 2010. The next year it won its best of category. This year it wont win anything because it isnt 100% complete. Though the reason its not at 100% is that the four tickets that I dont have in the set have never been graded as of yet by PSA. Turns out I will be sending one of the four in leaving me 3 short but how does this really make sense.

Some one says money...well lets see they dont send out your little paper certificate for winning best of set for the year unless you ask. So does adding a little icon on a webpage cost that much? I know one will say that they want to drive submission...well then to be honest why should I even keep submitting for my Favre Master set? There is no chance anyone will ever get to 100% on that set. Even if someone does it will go away in a month or two. There are potentially at least 10,000 different Favre cards that could be in that master set, taking out less than 1 of 4's or even lower print run cards. If PSA doesnt think its a nice set that some might have 5,000 different cards graded to even give you a little icon after dropping that much in grading fees, I dont see how it is just about the money.

I think it is more that with all the sets on the registry they just dont want to have to judge all that many sets to start with. Its more about time than money. Then again for most of the awards like best of set awards they dont even get judged its by pure math.

But its PSA's world. Unless we all defect and stop submitting cards they will do whatever they want to for the set registry. However, what it will really become is something that really does end up being for only collectors with deep pockets...or for just small sets. >>

It's 100%... or minimum 1000 cards registered for the big, big sets! So there is still a glimmer of hope for that Favre Master Set

-------------------------

Eric
ETP - Da Yooper Collection
Buying & Trading for PSA 10 Albert Pujols, PSA 8 Hank Aaron & PSA 10 Brett Favre cards

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MCMLVTopps
Collector

Posts: 1735
Joined: Aug 2005

Tuesday July 03, 2012 5:10 AM

Boiling it all down...

I don't collect to get an award, but, the award side of this game is a way to showcase your accomplishment...some would interpret that as bragging, I do not. When the rules get changed by management without allowing the collectors to have a voice with which management can then decide if it's best for the collector or not, I take issue with that kind of decision making. Having pondered all this a while, I can only conclude that it has to be money driven...as a poster above stated basically to force more raw into the system to attain the 100% level, thus generating more grading fees. However, if the raw isn't there, how can you move up? If there is a 1 of 1 ever graded by PSA and you need that ONE card to reach 100%, how do you get there? Sitting at 99.47% and no competition anywhere near you and not being recognized as the best set, is just not logical in any sense.

Some Master Sets are mired in a situation where there simply aren't any opportunities to move up...others have a plethora of cards, both raw and graded from which to bid-buy. Those that have been recognized at award time in the past (because they were at 95% or better), are now locked out till they meet the new standard. The award system of PSA is touted as a recognition for having accomplished quite a feat by amassing enough cards/stubs, whatever as being the best of the best...many have now been relegated to "also rans", or "has beens".

If 95% is good enough for Vintage, 95% should be good enough for Modern. Or, to put it another way, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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