1952 topps wax box

zsz70 · June 20, 2004 9:01PM

Is it true that the buyer of the 1952 topps wax box
in a recent auction tried to resell it two weeks after
the auction because he felt it was junk ?

CandyFactory · June 20, 2004 9:17PM

I don't know- where did you hear that?

interchanges · June 20, 2004 9:50PM

I would hate to spend over $200,000 on something and then consider it junk.

mikeschmidt · June 20, 2004 10:48PM

<< Is it true that the buyer of the 1952 topps wax box
in a recent auction tried to resell it two weeks after
the auction because he felt it was junk ? >>

I have not heard that - but a collector that was planning on bidding to win the box sold off some really nice 1950s Registry set(s) to bankroll the endeavour. For his sake (he is a good guy that goes far with a limited budget), I hope the above is not true.

zsz70 · June 21, 2004 3:01AM

Apparently the bbckid and GAI are under
litigation, and now the company that sold
the 1952 wax box and GAI are having it out
over some stuff that sold in the previous auction.

According to this wax pack expert from none
other then Newport Beach, CA, he says that
GAI's two best PACK graders have taken a back seat
to other non-experienced graders.
He says GAI was supposed to bring legitimacy to the
pack collecting world, but could be doing a
better job. Does this sound familiar ?

Needless to say, if you're ever interested in buying
good old wax, make sure you know your stuff, or buy
from someone who does.

I feel one of the best sources for pack legitimacy is
a guy in Canada named mr.marquis on ebay.
I've learned a lot from him.

Tipem · June 21, 2004 4:58AM

zsz70,

Can you give us an e-bay ID for this guy from Canada ?

Thanks,

Vic

gemint · June 21, 2004 5:10AM

Interesting. There's been a lot of questions surrounding that box ever since it hit the market.

mikeschmidt · June 21, 2004 5:14AM

<< Interesting. There's been a lot of questions surrounding that box ever since it hit the market. >>

Thus explaining why the final price was much lower than many initial expectations - looks like one or two of the main bidders backed out. The "high numbers" story in conjunction with the extra pack had some larger than life qualities about them.

mikeschmidt · June 21, 2004 5:25AM

For any that are interested - a long overview of some of these suspicions was promulgated by Mr. Wentz across the street some time ago.

Click here for the story

Note - the link disintegrates to some MW/BOTN fights - but the first few questions/posts are germane to this subject....

psa8myaz · June 21, 2004 5:29AM

"Game used" memorabilia, autographs and "unopened" packs are aspects of the hobby I stay away from. Will stick to the cards.

zsz70 · June 21, 2004 5:49AM

Tipem,

mr.marquis is his ebay name.

I've seen pics of his hockey wax collection and it is
one of the best. He has done vast research on hockey
and is probably the leading authority for wax in hockey.
His knowledge is also good in baseball wax, but hockey
is his specialty.

I'd like to clarify my previous thread. The bbckid
and GAI are fighting it out in the litigation. They are not
being litigated by someone else, they are going at each other
according to my source.

Lastly, my source tells me that the best grader available
to GAI is physically handicapped and can not travel with them.
I don't want it to sound like GAI is getting rid of it's best
graders. In this case, the gentlemen is just not physically
able to travel. However, the story goes that in the previous
auction with huge amounts of wax, this physically handicapped
experienced wax expert was not given the job of authenticating
the packs. It was given to one of the "lesser" graders.
In no way am I saying that this "lesser" grader is an idiot,
but experienced wax collectors have lost faith in GAI
since this knowledge has become public.

Having said all this, do I still buy GAI packs ? Yes, I do.
Do other more experienced pack collectors, yes and no.

However, who is going to buy a pack on ebay from someone
you don't know unless it's graded. We all know there are shady pack sellers
on ebay. "boy" oh "boy" we do if you know what I mean.

Tipem · June 21, 2004 6:00AM

zsz70,

Thanks !!!

Vic

packCollector · June 21, 2004 10:08PM

since they are not my books I think I can plug them here, mr marquis hockey wax collectors book is a must have for all collectors. it is similar to mark murphy's book but completely hockey and has tons of pictures of items that most people have never seen.

rvc · June 21, 2004 11:29PM

where/how can i buy mr marquis's hockey book?
i had the bbckid grade a box of 79 opeechee hockey, that i bought from the toppsvault ,at a ft washington show . one of the nicest unopened wax i had ever seen. and mark agreed . i got almost all gai 9's, around 10- 9.5's, a couple 8.5's and 1- 6or 7. a month later i saw a similiar box on ebay and the packs were graded much higher: some 10's,mostly 9.5's and 9's. i immediately contacted the bbckid and complained , reminding him how i spent the whole afternoon in ft.washington watching him grade my packs. i thought the only way for a 10 was to come straight from a case. he told me how he left gai b/c they werent living up to his standards , said i should complain to gai, and said 10's were more accessible now. i did complain to gai and they sent me free grading cert's but i was pissed.

RedHeart54 · June 22, 2004 3:03AM

packCollector,

Thanks for reminding me of that hockey wax pack book. I literally just ordered one a few minutes ago.

packCollector · June 22, 2004 3:19AM

here's his site :

hockeywax

dude · June 22, 2004 4:16AM

Getting back to the original discussion about Mastro Auction, I just read the auction description and in my opinion, when so much of detailed story is thrown at you, it tends to make me more skeptical than finding the story believable.

The biggest problem with the story is why this kid could remember so many intricate details regarding everything that happened to the box the first hour it arrived home, yet completely forgot about this box the rest of his childhood years. Lets face it, if my father presented me with a box of cards, I would have never forgotten about it. Unless it was locked in a safe, I would find it hard to believe that a kid would have never stumbled across it again over the next several months or years . As any parent knows, nothing is never really hidden from your children unless it's locked away. Also, a kid opens a pack and doesn't chew the gum and just puts the cards and gum back in the wrapper? Hammm.....

Another major problem is why there isn't any explanation regarding why there are staple holes in the box or why the packs are in mostly GAI 6 condition (which is pretty low for being stored inside a box).

packCollector · June 22, 2004 4:50AM

sorry for the hijack, I am wondering what the main complaint is, is it that mastro made up some far fetched story? is it that the packs are suspected to be a fraud? is it that the packs are suspected to not be 5th/6th series?

when I 1st went through the auction the thing that didn't make sense was , how could there be a box of 24 packs and coincidently there was another 5th/6th series pack labeled as such on the gai holder in the same auction? figured it was just another mastro writers imagine running wild.

packCollector · July 3, 2004 10:19PM

well someone else will get a chance, the ssame box is now in the lelands all star auction. I guess the rumor was true thatthe buyer did not like it.

happy 4th!!!!!!!!!!

Buccaneer · July 4, 2004 1:48AM

Is this like a potential superstar being sent down to the minors?

From the Leland's All-Star auction

<< 
Lot 50 . Complete 1952 Topps Baseball Five-Cent Wax Box with 24 Packs

The Holy Grail redux. This is an actual complete unopened box of 1952 Topps packs that came from the original confectionaire in Ontario, Canada. Given to him directly by an executive of the Topps Gum Company, the confectionaire gifted it to his son as the ultimate prize. Better than any Red Ryder Daisy Rifle, or a roomful of comic books, inside these wax packs lie the first truly great modern baseball card set. The brainchild of Topps’ Sy Berger, Woody Gelman and the rest of their team, this is the one that defined an industry. Packs such as these were bursting with delicious slabs of cardboard so much tastier than the gum. Inside was even the “true” Mickey Mantle rookie card, the “Honus Wagner Card” of the time. The confectionaire’s son immediately opened one of the wax packs unearthing five “common” (with apologies to their mothers) cards: Posedel, Abrams, Sleater, astiglione and DeMaestri. But the fact that these cards were from the high and semi high 5th and 6th series’ provides a potential bonanza for what is inside. Thank the baseball card gods he did not pull a “star”, upon his father’s direction the disappointed youngster put the rest of the unopened cards away and they went into a veritable hibernation for over a half a century. The remaining 23 unopened five-cent packs have been graded by Global Authentication and perfectly encapsulated for preservation. A wealth of “priceless” cards wait inside with a potential for a number of Jackie Robinson, Ed Mathews, Roy Campanella and of course Mickey Mantle cards. The packs' grade as follows: GAI EX-MT 6: 18 packs; GAI EX+ 5.5: 5 packs. Also included is the pack the boy originally opened to round out this complete box with a total of 24 packs. The original display box is in itself magnificent. This two-piece, 8 x 5 5/8 x 1 1/2" piece of cardboard splendor is an artifact of worship. Overall, it is in beautiful condition with only a couple of small staple holes barely visible on the lid and a few inconsequential marks on the bottom. This very box was recently sold at auction for over $200,000. In fact, the original confectionaire’s family consigned it. However, the buyer has now placed it back on the market for personal reasons that forced its sale. One of the most significant pieces in all of collecting returns to you in an exclusive engagement, which could be its swan song. The only 1952 Topps complete box ever to have been sold publicly since the corner candy store boasted them in the summer of ’52. Gum included.

Reserve: $25,000
Number of Bids: 7
Current Bid: $53,589.71
>>

gemint · July 4, 2004 2:40AM

Wow. What do you think the chances are that the original purchaser will get his money back?

Bearsnum34 · July 4, 2004 2:48AM

none

hojodojonono · July 4, 2004 3:23AM

If the buyer sold it pack by pack by himself on Ebay he would probably make money. He was the highest bidder in the world just a few weeks ago. It's the exact same item and unless the auctioneer is collecting no money on both ends there isn't a very good chance that a new buyer has entered the market since then who will push it high enough to make money. Topps should buy them and give them away for free in $1000 packs of Topps 2004 Exquisitier.

reggie1 · July 4, 2004 3:58AM

How do they know with 100 % certainty which series these cards are from before GAI grades them. Provenance only goes so far with something like this. With an unopened pack you are trying to guess the unknown which is impossible, unless there is a difference in the wrapper from one series to the next or less cards per pack. This type of bidding would seem very dangerous to me.

pc · July 4, 2004 4:55AM

front or back card visibility helps

rvc · July 4, 2004 5:06AM

does anyone know who bought the box ?
can he bid on his own item in the lelands auction?

TheCARDKid · July 4, 2004 10:10AM

Based upon the scans from the Mastro auction, the packs contain 5th and 6th series cards:

1952 Topps box card identities

Bill did a great job in identifying the packs. Granted, some of the packs towards the end of the thread were very tough to identify. But the first two packs show very solid evidence.

Maybe it was assumed that the entire box was high numbers, which isn't the case.

It's never a good sign when a major auction lot is re auctioned within a few months. It doesn't give potential bidders those warm and fuzzy feelings.

Any guesses on the ending price? Also, what's with the pic in the Lelands auction. Where are the GAI packs?

jrdolan · July 4, 2004 10:22AM

<< Any guesses on the ending price?? >>

Less than half of the Mastro price.

<< Also, what's with the pic in the Lelands auction. Where are the GAI packs? >>

Good question. Maybe something to do with the aforementioned legal proceedings?

packCollector · July 4, 2004 11:31AM

great question on why the packs are not displayed in gai holders but they are listed in the auction as 18 gai 6's and 5 gai 5.5's the mysterious extra pack is also gone

TheCARDKid · July 4, 2004 1:06PM

It seems like Mastro could have solved alot of problems by clearing stating why the packs were graded so low (relatively speaking). If the packs had a few tears, thats one thing. The cards could still be mint. But if there was water damage/bugs due to the gum, that's an entirely different problem.

Wabittwax · July 4, 2004 3:45PM

I think if the break up value on Ebay still exists, it should go for good money. There are still dealers out there with deep pockets who will break this up on Ebay if the price is too cheap in the Lelands auction.

Scumbi · July 4, 2004 6:39PM

Regarding the latest MW/BOTN rematch, can someone explain how a PSA 6 card transferred into a PSA 9 holder? Was the grader hanging on monkey bars?

S.

mikeschmidt · July 4, 2004 10:25PM

My understanding is this:

The buyer of the box is one of the most respected collectors in the hobby. He has owned many of the major sportscards at one point or another, and has accumulated/amassed amazing runs of sets that he has sold at one time or another. The buyer is selling the set for personal reasons - not in any way because he was unhappy with the box. The buyer's integrity is unquestioned in my mind.

MS

zsz70 · July 5, 2004 12:26AM

Marc,

Sounds like an excuse to me to get the thing to sell for a good price.

A. Over 200K sale price.
B. Auction house and GAI have a dispute over the box.
C. The seller wants to sell immediately after the purchase.
D. The seller says he is selling for personal reasons.

Conclusion....Doesn't make sense.

tripoli · July 5, 2004 1:04AM

Everyone sells for personal reasons, so that by itself explains nothing.

Chew · July 5, 2004 3:40AM

I posted this in another thread. I will post here also.

Not that it is any of our concern, I am going to tell you so it stops the rumors and it will not affect the future of the packs. The purchaser had an unexpected serious illness in his family. He is going to incur major medical expenses. He felt it was better to sell some packs than to take $$ from his kids education funds. Do you blame him? I hope this answers your question.

Thanks H. Walker

pc · July 5, 2004 5:02AM

well he isnt selling packs.he's blowing it out in it's entirety.

zsz70 · July 5, 2004 5:19AM

Chew,

Thanks for the insight.

Being that you have good information, can you explain
why GAI and an auction house are having differences related to
the sale of these graded packs ? Do you have any
insight to this ? We're all still up in the air on that one.

I heard this guy wanted to sell the packs soon after
the auction was over. So the illness news
must have come upon him rather quickly on him. It must
have been some shock. Sad.

marc

Chew · July 5, 2004 5:23AM

<< Chew,

Thanks for the insight.

Being that you have good information, can you explain
why GAI and an auction house are having differences related to
the sale of these graded packs ? Do you have any
insight to this ? We're all still up in the air on that one.

I heard this guy wanted to sell the packs soon after
the auction was over. So the illness news
must have come upon him rather quickly on him. It must
have been some shock. Sad.

marc >>

I have no insight about GAI and any auction house.
As far as I know these are rumors also.

As I said the illness was very sudden and yes it was discovered
within days after the auction.

H. Walker

koby · July 5, 2004 6:04AM

chew

Any truth to these rumors?

link

koby

Chew · July 5, 2004 7:04AM

To my knowledge there is no truth to anything I have read here.

If other people have facts let them speak. If not please don't start anymore rumors.

These rumors affect more people than just card and pack collectors.

Thanks H. Walker

Chew · July 5, 2004 7:26AM

<< well he isnt selling packs.he's blowing it out in it's entirety. >>

When I said he was selling packs, he is also selling packs other than the 1952 lot.

H. Walker

cardboardcollector · July 5, 2004 9:37AM

The owner of the box was at the Sportsfest show last weekend. He was offering a bunch of stuff from his collection, including the 1952 packs to dealers. All of the packs clearly state 5th and 6th series on them. Plus he has an opened pack from the group which has cards from both series, which are supposedly in pristing condition except for the one next to the gum which is stained.

He said the reason why he was selling some of his stuff was due to a serious illness in the family. He said that he was happy with the packs, but needed to raise a bunch of money.

He talked to all of the biggest wax dealers and was able to find out who the underbidder on the box was. Supposedly it was him and the underbidder for the last several bids. He offered the packs to the underbidder and he was not interested now. I am sure that he realizes that if he puts them back in Mastro's auction they will not do that well, especially since the top two bidders are out of the hunt.

Mastronet was set up at the show with a big display, but did not have other unopened wax packs there. I asked them if they had much unopened 1950's wax in the upcoming auciton and they said not really, only a few individual packs.

The only neat thing that I heard about getting graded at the show was a 1957 Topps basketball wax pack. I did not see it, but several dealers did. They said it was the first they had ever seen.

Hope this helps out a little bit.

zsz70 · July 5, 2004 10:48AM

Thanks cardboardcollector for the info.

My heart really goes out to this guy.

What a sad, sad story.

koby · July 5, 2004 11:19AM

Sad story indeed. Let's pray that the guy can recoup most of his money and that his family is ok

mikeschmidt · July 5, 2004 2:42PM

It is too bad that so many vicious rumours have circulated about these packs - the current owner/consignor of these packs is one of the good guys of the hobby - although he has often shied from the limelight. Whereas some super-collectors are big players on the Registry and seemingly have seven-figure budgets for the annual accumulation - this collector has bought and sold many of the neatest sportscards over the years - and has only been an asset to the hobby.

My best wishes to him and his family-
Marc

Buccaneer · July 27, 2004 10:13AM

Forgive me for bringing this back up but I finally remembered to look and saw the a price of $166,850 was realized. That's pretty good considering. At first I was suspicious as to the story of why it had to be re-sold so quickly. I figured that if someone could afford $200k for this lot at Mastro, such a person could afford really good medical insurance. There were just so much controversy surrounding this lot and some were not surprised that it re-appeared so quickly. But I gave the benefit of the doubt and hope that everything works out.

1952 topps wax box

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