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PCGS Certfied U.S. 500 Unit Silver Pattern of 1783 To Be Auctioned
Analyst
Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭
It is extremely rare for me to start a thread about one of my own articles. Indeed, I rarely start a thread at all. Usually, I try hard to constructively contribute to threads begun by others. In this case, however, the pattern in question is a topic of great importance. For the first time since the Garrett sale of Nov. 1979, a Quint will be offered at auction. I researched the topic as I was writing this piece.
The underlying subject matter is even more interesting and more puzzling than I initially thought, both in terms of the historical importance of the Morris patterns and of the pedigrees of individual pieces. I hope that the members of this forum will comment on my research and thoughts, in addition to expressing your respective feelings regarding the importance of the piece to be auctioned. Thank you.
PCGS Certfied U.S. 500 Unit Silver Pattern of 1783 (Type 2 Quint) To Be Auctioned
"In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
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WOWZERS!
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
<< <i>
WOWZERS! >>
Ditto!
TD
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
-Paul
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Thank you for cross-referencing my "5 Dec(imes)" theory for the engraving above the 500 in the fourth paragraph. Sure wish there was a good picture of the "grafitti" so that others could offer their opinions.
TD >>
OK, I think that qualifies as a "good picture" -- I thought it was coming out of my computer, ready to attack me.
Definitely some type of graffiti or engraving, not sure what. The first digit/letter does not look like a '5' to me --
it might be a '2' or a '7' or even a poorly made letter. I really do not see "Dec" in the rest of the graffiti, just a lot
of scribble.
By the way, congratulations to PCGS for encapsulating the piece, even with the graffiti. A piece of history like this
deserves nothing less. Think the new owner will crack it out and shoot for a higher grade, or just be happy with
a CAC bean? Gold?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I don't see a 5 now. But if that is a 2, it is very odd. Could be anything.
The "Dec" is there, in cursive script. The capital "D" is above the upper right tip of the U of US. The lower case "ec" follow.
TD
it looks like a great coin!
Sunshine Rare Coins
sunshinecoins.com/store/c1/Featured_Products.html
<< <i>He instructed that the only thing "French" about the French Quarter in New Orleans is the word "French." >>
Well, that and the receipt that says, "Thank you for your purchase of Louisiana. Love, France"
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
The Specimen 1795 Bust $1 brought maybe $180K. MrE disagrees with my classification, which I quoted from both Garrett and Jimmy Hayes, where it brought less. I now agree it shouldn't be classified as a proof.
The 1804 $1, now (I think) NGC AU58, then called EF, brought $400K.
Is there interest now at $1M?
<< <i>In Garrett It it brought maybe $190K.
The Specimen 1795 Bust $1 brought 184K. MrE disagrees with my classification, which I quoted from both Garrett and Jimmy Hayes, where it brought less. I now agree it shouldn't be claaaified as a proof.
The 1804 $1, now (I think) NGC AU58, then called EF, brought $400K.
Is there interest now at $1M? >>
My gut says no, but all it takes is two fools with money and bidding paddles!
Cardinal Half Disme MS68 $1,145,625.
Starr Half Disme SP67 $1,322,500.
1828 $5 Proof 64 brought $1,380,000.
Any other data points?
Not that any are really all the useful, but what else is there?
Great post thank you Analyst!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Never heard of a quint till now,
Great post thank you Analyst! >>
Most collectors have not, unless they study the Redbook.
Great article by Analyst - A tremendous reminder of its role at the seminal point in American numismatics.
I think too much technical disputation and explanation of graffiti, etching or other qualitative factors vitiates the con's overall importance. It's not common, like a half disme or 1794 dollar, whatever the ultimate might be for either issue. The socio-political matrix in which this coin and other patterns that presaged Washinton's small start at a coinage inform a good deal more than simple coin production details. Lots of different skeins of numismatic and even real-life history worth following.
To the pedestrian but very entertaining topic of market value.
I suggested speculation of $1M.
I told MrE today at lunch today that, if offered the coin at $500K plus my left pinky toe, my response would be "Surgically removed. Would you like it on ice or with a gold chain so you can wear it aroound your neck?"
Aki barked enthusiastically.
What's in the PCGS Million Dollar Coin Club that might help.
Not a meg? Various 1802 PR65 and PR66 $1's have sold for $850K to $920K in the past five years. But they're clearly around
If you understood dogspeak as well as I do, you would know that Aki didn't just bark. What he said is, "Ice, please, so it will keep until we get home to the barbecue."
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
Great article Analyst and great looking piece DUIGUY!
Here's the Quint TrueView:
IrishMikey: << The first digit/letter does not look like a '5' to me -- it might be a '2' or a '7' or even a poorly made letter. I really do not see "Dec" in the rest of the graffiti, just a lot
of scribble.>>
CaptHenway: <<I don't see a 5 now. But if that is a 2, it is very odd. Could be anything. The "Dec" is there, in cursive script. The capital "D" is above the upper right tip of the U of US. The lower case "ec" follow.>>
ColonelJessup: <<I think too much technical disputation and explanation of graffiti, etching or other qualitative factors vitiates the coin's overall importance.>>
So do I, this is one reason why I did not emphasize this factor in my article. I do agree with the Captain that there is a good chance that <<Dec>> has been scrawled, though this is not definitely true. While the probability of a bunch of scratches appearing as <<Dec>> may be low, there are a lot of scratches on the reverse and low probability events sometimes occur.
ColonelJessup: <<In Garrett, it brought maybe $190K.>>
No, the Garrett-Ford Quint brought 190k or something like that. The Garrett-Persche Quint, this one, brought less than one third as much as the Garrett-Ford Quint. It has a different obverse and its weight is different.
ColonelJessup: <<The Specimen 1795 Bust $1 brought maybe $180K. MrE disagrees with my classification, which I quoted from both Garrett and Jimmy Hayes, where it brought less. I now agree it shouldn't be classified as a proof. The 1804 $1, now (I think) NGC AU58, then called EF, brought $400K.>>
IMO, these are not relevant. The 1776 Continental Currency patterns are relevant, though the Morris patterns are far rarer. It is not difficult to find a 1776 Continental Currency pattern in pewter. There are a very suprisingly large number of them around.
ColonelJessup: <<Manley NE shilling brought $416,875 - Cardinal Half Disme MS68 $1,145,625. Starr Half Disme SP67 $1,322,500 -1828 $5 Proof 64 brought $1,380,000. ... Any other data points? ... Not that any are really all the useful, but what else is there? >>
NE Shillings are a whole different matter. These are business strikes and these were issued in a colony of England. The Morris patterns relate to the beginnings of coinage of the U.S., not just in regions that is now part of the U.S., and to the founding fathers.
That 1828 Half Eagle is beside the meaning of the Quints, too, though that Half Eagle is also a fascinating piece. Please read my article about it:
$1.38 Million Auction Record for a Half Eagle
Cardinal Half Disme $1,145,625. Starr Half Disme $1,322,500
Yes, I salute the Colonel in regard to these <<data points>>! The 1792 half dismes are patterns of great historical importance. IMO, these are very relevant to Morris patterns. Not long ago, I wrote about 1792 half dismes:
1792 Half Dismes, Part 2: Amazing Pieces to be Auctioned
1792 Half Dismes, Part 1: Origins and Meaning
Besides, there are around three hundred 1792 half dismes in existence, and an incredibly small number of Morris patterns. It is not even clear that all the reported pieces are genuine. Whatever happened to the <Mark> that Breen saw in 1959? How was the lone copper piece authenticated?
Capt. Henway: <<I personally would rather have that NE Shilling than the Quint, but that's just me.>>
Why, the Quints are directly connected to the founding fathers and the Continental Congress. NE Shillings are coins of an English denomination in an English colony. Would the Captain also rather have a Sommer Islands -Bermuda- Shilling?
In any event, I appreciate the interest in my article by members of this forum.
Honestly I haven't thought of a Quint for years, but every time something so neat comes up, it reminds me of why I majored in history. The motifs and themes are not limited to coins. They resonate through many layers of history.
I know of a few '92 Copper Dismes (20 survivors?) that have sold in the last decade. Only one, the Lovejoy coin that Harry Laibstain and I owned, traded at under $200K. MrE and I owned rhe Parmelee '92 Siver Disme (VF25 details, wholesome original pedigreed scratches, 3 known) near the beginning of the 2000's. A large size Thos. Jefferson Indian Peace Medal presented by such as Lewis and Clark brought $345K a few years ago. When something like this Quint, now changing hands for the second time in a century, actually shows up, logarithms don't come into it. Maybe Fibonacci could come up with a number.
Every one of these issues has more meaning, and numismatic value, than an 1804 $1. Or a '13 V-nick
Guess I have this twisted idea that a Quint should be worth major bucks to a connoissieur. Mr "I Predict" says the last hand up will be a Forum member.
If it had a sticker on it.... Ah, well then
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