Does anyone know why this 1831 quarter sold for such a high price?

RichieURich · February 18, 2011 3:27AM

Here is the coin in question, VG to Fine, sold for $1,613.00:
1831 Quarter

Billet7 · February 18, 2011 3:52AM

If you don't know than I can't imagine anyone would.

It looks like a large letters reverse, with the B-5 obverse...but the arrowheads appear to be shorter...is it a possibility that it's a B-7? If so, that would be a serious SCORE!!! I haven't consulted my books yet, but perhaps that's what is going on.

If not...someone might be crazy, or they believe that they encountered a new variety.

fastfreddie · February 18, 2011 4:00AM

Maybe from proof dies? Not sure how you can tell from those photo's. I sent him an email asking why. We'll see if he responds.

QuarterCollector · February 18, 2011 4:55AM

It looks like a B-7. I search everyday and never find these.

Tom

Quarternut · February 18, 2011 5:01AM

I find it interesting that only the top two bidders seem to know what it was...imagine if only one bidder had realized what it was...it would have sold for a little over $100!

Just goes to show that there are still rare ones out there and knowledge is king!

QN

Baley · February 18, 2011 5:02AM

wow, if not for the 2nd place bidder, the winner would have had it for $102

(of course, there's no telling how many snipes at in between prices were locked out for being below that second place bidder's number)

QuarterCollector · February 18, 2011 5:04AM

Im still in awe on how I missed this. I need to spend less time on these boards

RichieURich · February 18, 2011 5:05AM

<< I find it interesting that only the top two bidders seem to know what it was...imagine if only one bidder had realized what it was...it would have sold for a little over $100!

Just goes to show that there are still rare ones out there and knowledge is king!

QN >>

My first thought on this auction was exactly what QN said in his first sentence. And my second thought was the same as QN's second sentence.

Congratulations to the buyer, whoever that person might be.

ajman · February 18, 2011 9:46AM

Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly a B-7?

RichieURich · February 18, 2011 10:16AM

<< Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly a B-7? >>

Not ignorance, it is a good question.

A. W. Browning wrote the original reference book on Early Quarters, in 1925. The book outlines and pictures all of the die combinations used for each year. They are commonly referred to with "B" (Browning) numbers. The 1831 B-7 is the 7th variety of the 7 varieties known for 1831. It is rare, in the Steve Tompkins book, he estimates its rarity as R5+.

1Bustcollector · February 18, 2011 10:24AM

Now, here's an individual who has done his homework, spent more time researching for the right die marriages and picked up a very nice 31 B-7! Congrats! Not only does it appear to be a nice problem free example but my database shows approximately 30-50% of these grades have some minor issues..........in reality this new one should bring very good money and I don't mean $3,000-$4,000, MORE.

As a side note: Most all have the typical weakness on the upper reverse. PCGS, NGC should hopefully take this into consideration.

I agree with the other comments, only one other individual knew in the bidding process????????

Where do you spend your time?

Barndog · February 19, 2011 11:14PM

I sure wish half dime prices were even close to what quarters and halves can sell for...I'd be wealthy

birddog1 · February 20, 2011 4:22AM

There was at least one other person who knew what it was. I was the first bidder (second underbidder). I alerted the underbidder who I knew needed the coin for his set and dropped out of the bidding. Unfortunately the underbidder fell just short.

As for rarity this variety is likely to be no rarer that R5 at best. When I found my first in 1991 it was only the third known. The number known has increased dramatically since that time. I personally have found 5 others besides that first one and had this been a buy it now that would have been number seven for me. I have seen at least 6 others appeRception on bay in the last 10-12 years. Many were sold before the auction was completed (as Russ Logan would say- there were disappeared).

As for price I have a hard time believing that this coin would net more than $2k. If it were in higher grade it would go for considerably more than 4K. Several low grade pieces have been on dealers sites and have not sold for the typical 3 to 4 k asked. The range seems to be about 2k for an undamaged good to good+ and up to $12k for a VF.

I currently have three spares for sale if anyone is interested. A scratched VG+, a good with some surface corrosion, and a nice clean VF coin.

Birddog1

BaseballAbs · February 20, 2011 5:03AM

I totally agree with you birddog1. The chances of this variety showing up more and more seem high to me. It takes a good look to know what your looking at, and if you don't study it it will pass you by. There could a few more that have not been discovered and soon enough it becomes and R-4. I refuse to bid higher than what happened the last few seconds.

BaseballAbs · February 20, 2011 5:11AM

<< I sure wish half dime prices were even close to what quarters and halves can sell for...I'd be wealthy

>>

That could change someday Barndog.

SoCalBigMark · February 20, 2011 5:45AM

Barndog is wealthy!

Billet7 · February 20, 2011 5:47AM

<< 

<< I sure wish half dime prices were even close to what quarters and halves can sell for...I'd be wealthy

>>

That could change someday Barndog. >>

I think the fact that half-dimes are extremely small turn off many collectors. JMHO.

Barndog · February 20, 2011 5:51AM

<< 

<< 

<< I sure wish half dime prices were even close to what quarters and halves can sell for...I'd be wealthy

>>

That could change someday Barndog. >>

I think the fact that half-dimes are extremely small turn off many collectors. JMHO. >>

keeping other collectors turned off by the small size of the coin keeps prices down for people who are actively assembling a collection, like yours truly.

RichieURich · February 20, 2011 6:51AM

<< . . . . . As for rarity this variety is likely to be no rarer that R5 at best. When I found my first in 1991 it was only the third known. The number known has increased dramatically since that time. I personally have found 5 others besides that first one and had this been a buy it now that would have been number seven for me. I have seen at least 6 others appeRception on bay in the last 10-12 years. Many were sold before the auction was completed (as Russ Logan would say- there were disappeared).

As for price I have a hard time believing that this coin would net more than $2k. If it were in higher grade it would go for considerably more than 4K. Several low grade pieces have been on dealers sites and have not sold for the typical 3 to 4 k asked. The range seems to be about 2k for an undamaged good to good+ and up to $12k for a VF.

I currently have three spares for sale if anyone is interested. A scratched VG+, a good with some surface corrosion, and a nice clean VF coin.

Birddog1 >>

In my opinion, there is a BIG difference on this coin in price depending on whether or not the coin is graded by PCGS or NGC. I sold a nice NGC VF-30 a couple of years ago for over $15K. If the coin in the auction is graded, $2K is in my view a very low estimate.

1Bustcollector · February 20, 2011 7:10AM

Let's talk about an R-5. If we take the middle of the road, that might mean 45-60 examples located to date, so let's say 50-ish for the middle of that road unless my figures are incorrect. IMHO, we may still be in the low-mid 30's, meaning breaking out of the low R-6 range. I kinda think we still have to locate another 15 examples to be a solid R-5. To assign a future Rarity rating always makes for a safe bet so one doesn't appear out of touch, and we all do that. And yes, the reality is most R-6's end up as R-5's. But the case for price is a variable, dependent on how nice the coin looks: surface, scratches, toning, how many in that grade range, on and on. I agree, a Good to G+ may stand at 2k. This example is better than good and more importantly, (by the picture) it looks pretty nice and hopefully problem free to get into PCGS-VG or VG+, no? Am I off base with the grade? What grade do you assign? Like the 1806 B-4 with its striking weakness, this small size die marriage also has some weakness, do you think the slight upper reverse weakness might hinder the grade when submitted?? In any event, a problem free example stands out in the 31 B-7 crowd-hence my estimate.

Comments...........

thisnamztaken · February 20, 2011 7:28AM

I'll bet the seller's (blueridge1) mouth dropped opened wide enough for a softball to fit in it the moment he saw how much it sold for!!

birddog1 · February 20, 2011 8:11AM

<< Let's talk about an R-5. If we take the middle of the road, that might mean 45-60 examples located to date, so let's say 50-ish for the middle of that road unless my figures are incorrect. IMHO, we may still be in the low-mid 30's, meaning breaking out of the low R-6 range. I kinda think we still have to locate another 15 examples to be a solid R-5. To assign a future Rarity rating always makes for a safe bet so one doesn't appear out of touch, and we all do that. And yes, the reality is most R-6's end up as R-5's. But the case for price is a variable, dependent on how nice the coin looks: surface, scratches, toning, how many in that grade range, on and on. I agree, a Good to G+ may stand at 2k. This example is better than good and more importantly, (by the picture) it looks pretty nice and hopefully problem free to get into PCGS-VG or VG+, no? Am I off base with the grade? What grade do you assign? Like the 1806 B-4 with its striking weakness, this small size die marriage also has some weakness, do you think the slight upper reverse weakness might hinder the grade when submitted?? In any event, a problem free example stands out in the 31 B-7 crowd-hence my estimate.

Comments........... >>

Even taking into account the weak reverse strike I would grade this example no better than a VG8 but with 3rd party grade inflation this could get into a F12 holder especially if they know about the reverse striking weakness. I would be curious to hear what others grade this coin. I agree that problem free examples are not the norm but they are out there and can be found (as I have) with diligent searching. I have been collecting bust coins by variety since 1986 and when I say that the variety is probably an R5 that is in comparison to R5 varieties in other series that I have seen over the years. So my R5 estimate is based on the numbers that have appeared relative to other R5 varieties over the past 25 years. This is hardly out of touch. It is a realistic estimate of what is probably out there right now especially if you consider that a fair number of collectors choose not to participate in censuses and that there are a few collectors that are stockpiling certain rare dates/varieties like the 31 B7.

As for numbers known, if you count the 10 listed in the census Steve Thompsons book (stops at F12), the six I have found (none listed in Steve's book), this new specimen, and the six others I have seen on ebay (mostly too low grade to make it into Steve's list) we are already up to 23 specimens. Another 4 graded less than F12 in the most recent JRJ census that may or may not be coins I have seen, and at least 5 other specimens that I know of in collections that are not included in the census and we are already in excess of 30 specimens. Add a few more that are currently in dealers inventories and we are up to at least 35. This coin appears at a rate that strongly suggests an eventual R5 rating. I do agree that, based on information generally known to the collecting community it is R5+ now.

1Bustcollector · February 20, 2011 9:19AM

Steve's new book says R-5+. I agree.

I'm saying when an example is sold it is sold at the current time, demand and rarity, not necessarily what it may be eventually in rarity............down the road the demand can change much on both side of the coin. And speaking of demand......that's most likely the real key before rarity. Also, once a pricing structure is established then its difficult to change it unless you can prove there are let's say 60 or more examples out there and have it in print to prove it, and that may take years!

I've also found when a person locates numerous examples the perception may become that it is much less rare than it really is. I'm not saying this is the case for you but it does have an effect on an individual. If I ask others how many they found it may be none or one, should we use that figure, no. The best way is to document as much as possible and do the best we can for rarity, yes we know individuals like to play "out of the arena" for reasons of their own. I try not to play into that game..........I would rather stay on the side of proper documentation to the best of my ability and not guess from the others who hide or remain so private-If they don't want to participate then so be it.

Many individuals who have numerous duplicate die marriages collect examples while not concerning themselves with the condition as much but merely numbers don't you think? What I mean is, usually their primary set is usually the best and their duplicates less "as nice."

Today I believe the 31 B-7 to be R-5+, what tomorrow brings may fool all of us.

BaseballAbs · February 20, 2011 9:39AM

Well spoken!

birddog1 · February 20, 2011 10:07AM

I'm guessing that the 31 B7 will remain a desired coin for a long time due to the combination of obverse 1/1 and reverse short arrowheads. It may even get more popular if it gets listed in the Redbook at some point in the future. I agree that my views might be tainted by the large number that I have found, but realize that I have been looking for 25 years. I have found multiples of other rare varieties and can plot the numbers known over time to show a rarity trajectory. So if you take coins that were found around the same time as my first 1831 B7 in 1991 and look at the numbers known today you will find that coins like the 36B5 (found in 1988, I found the second known about 3 weeks after it was announced in the JRJ) have about half as many (or fewer) known examples than the 31B7. Approximately the same time frame, yet I have found 6 31B7's (with many more seen on ebay and in dealers stock) and only 2 36B5's (with not a single example seen on ebay or in dealers stock). In fact I have seen more 31B7's than many bust quarters currently rated R5.

You are right. I can't prove that 60 exist, but I have no doubt that it is an R5 coin. And you are also correct that if some collectors choose not to share their census information than it should not be counted in determining the final rarity number. But if given a choice between a 31B7 and a few other varieties in similar grade I would choose the 31B7 last based on my knowledge of the series.

1Bustcollector · February 20, 2011 10:16AM

I'm not sure how to do the quote so bear with me........

You are right. I can't prove that 60 exist, but I have no doubt that it is an R5 coin. And you are also correct that if some collectors choose not to share their census information than it should not be counted in determining the final rarity number. But if given a choice between a 31B7 and a few other varieties in similar grade I would choose the 31B7 last based on my knowledge of the series. >>

That is for another time and subject. A very good subject at that!

Does anyone know why this 1831 quarter sold for such a high price?

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