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Now that we see fake PCGS slabs that are fooling some...
ecichlid
Posts: 1,212 ✭✭✭
Now that we see fake PCGS slabs that are fooling some, I don't see how anything less than a online photo library of PCGS slabbed coins to deter them. I expect that fake slabs will get better and we will see more of them. Imagine a fake mint state gold Indian going into a fake slab, with a number that matches a real coin. Yeow! If there is no coin image online that I can look up, then it will be difficult for me to pull the trigger. Without images, fancier slabs will only result in a cat and mouse game. Older slabs will become less desirable, not more, as they often are today.
Am I off base here with this concern?
Am I off base here with this concern?
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
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TRUTH
<< <i>If you become knowledgeable about coins, you won't get burned. >>
Actually some very knowledgable people have been burned over the years, remember the Omega gold? In the US we have only been seeing the cheap Chinese fakes, the better ones are starting to show up, and there will be even better to come. Unless one is really really good even the best may bet caught out.
World Collection
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Online high quality photo database........mandatory..........
......I collect old stuff......
As far as the online photo library, it would help, however, it does nothing for the millions of legacy slabs on the market.
As it stands now, I treat certified coins from unknown sellers at about equivalent to raw coins because I believe that fake holders are flooding various channels in large numbers. Some of the fake holders have fake coins in them, some real coins at a higher grade. I no longer buy coins over a certain value from unknown sellers, certified or raw. It used to be just certain series known for fakes, but there have been reports of all sorts of coins, even coins of modest value being faked. I believe that a good number of collections are being filled with fakes, and the marks don't even know it yet.
<< <i>If you become knowledgeable about coins, you won't get burned. The slab is inconsequential.
TRUTH >>
I wish I could agree with the above, but I'm not so certain.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>If you become knowledgeable about coins, you won't get burned. The slab is inconsequential.
TRUTH >>
I disagree. It is very hard to tell from pricture sometime.
<< <i>Online high quality photo database........mandatory.......... >>
I agree.
<< <i>As far as authentication, less than 5% of collectors can authenticate against decent fakes. >>
I don't doubt that this is far from reality. I'd also venture to guess the % of dealers is higher but maybe not greatly so - they just may be a little more wary. I see fakes in cases at every show I attend - and I don't think they are being offerred dishonestly.
It is truly frightening that high quality fakes of generic coins are being made, along with high quality fake slabs infiltrating the market place.
<< <i>
<< <i>If you become knowledgeable about coins, you won't get burned. The slab is inconsequential.
TRUTH >>
I disagree. It is very hard to tell from pricture sometime. >>
I can only speak for myself. I will not buy a coin without viewing it inhand first. If I see an expensive slabbed coin on the internet, the coin is sent on approval. I prefer to buy coins raw, and most of the coin shops from which I purchase have a fair assortment. In the last 15 years of buying raw, I have never purchased a counterfeit or altered coin. I don't wish to spend $1000 on a fake, so I am much, much more cautious. In fact, I have had to tell some coin store owners that some of their recent raw acquisitions were fake, much to their chagrin. If you feel comfortable about buying raw coins, buying slabs comes easy, because you know what looks good and what looks bad. I just believe that the TPG holder can become a crutch, especially when educating oneself about coins.
TRUTH
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If you become knowledgeable about coins, you won't get burned. The slab is inconsequential.
TRUTH >>
I disagree. It is very hard to tell from pricture sometime. >>
I can only speak for myself. I will not buy a coin without viewing it inhand first. If I see an expensive slabbed coin on the internet, the coin is sent on approval. I prefer to buy coins raw, and most of the coin shops from which I purchase have a fair assortment. In the last 15 years of buying raw, I have never purchased a counterfeit or altered coin. I don't wish to spend $1000 on a fake, so I am much, much more cautious. In fact, I have had to tell some coin store owners that some of their recent raw acquisitions were fake, much to their chagrin. If you feel comfortable about buying raw coins, buying slabs comes easy, because you know what looks good and what looks bad. I just believe that the TPG holder can become a crutch, especially when educating oneself about coins.
TRUTH >>
That's because you never see a good fake coin. Try some China coins you will know how good they fake it. That's why PCGS, NGC and ANACS always grade China coins QA when they are in doubt, not because they know it is fake but because they are not sure it is genuine. NGC recently graded a high price China coin which was sold for 1 million in Hongkong two months ago. Some people believe that's a fake coin.
<< <i>So why do you think PCGS has not moved to an online photo verification system? My first guess is that the additional cost would discourage coins of lesser value being slabbed in the first place. In other words, their volume would go down. >>
NGC has a photo verification system currently in place. All coins get a digital photo when graded at no additional cost.
TRUTH
Not true. I have seem some really good Chinese fakes of American coins offered to me as real. Especially, better date buffalo nickels in mint state. The diagnostics are usually off. However, I do not buy Chinese coins, so a chinese fake of a chinese coin is not of consequence to me.
TRUTH
Pretty much agree - I think that you have to know the competency of who you are dealing with and have a trust in them. I kind have a hierarchy of purchasing.
I would not by a 1k dollar coin from an someone I had not done some amount of business or know from the hobby.
<< <i>RFID >>
Are you knowledgeable about how the technology works? I know very little about it, but I do have an electrical engineering background. I can't see how this would help unless every collector had a device to read the tags. That's not practical. If you know better, please share.
Still, no one has has answered my question below. Is it simply because no one knows why?
So why do you think PCGS has not moved to an online photo verification system? My first guess is that the additional cost would discourage coins of lesser value being slabbed in the first place. In other words, their volume would go down.
<< <i>
<< <i>So why do you think PCGS has not moved to an online photo verification system? My first guess is that the additional cost would discourage coins of lesser value being slabbed in the first place. In other words, their volume would go down. >>
NGC has a photo verification system currently in place. All coins get a digital photo when graded at no additional cost. >>
I'm sure PCGS will eventually do this if they want to stay competitive with NGC. My understanding is NGC only takes pic of those coins above a certain dollar value---I believe it's $100.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
By the lack of responses to my question, I can only assume that PCGS feels that photographing the coins will cut down on the number of submissions due to the increased cost. My guess is all of these PCGS slabs will get counterfeited and will require expertise to discern. When this occurs, coins in PCGS slabs will have very little premium over raw.
I hope I'm wrong, but it seems inevitable to me.
IMO that is there answer for now.
the real scary examples now are sandwiched coin halves in a fake PCGS slab
an example was/is manofcoins 1932-D MS65 eBay purchase
someone took a 1932-P (?) obverse - turned off the reverse half
took a D reverse (could have been a 1964-D?) and turned off the obverse
stuck them together (with glue?) and put them in a PCGS slab
since edge view is not possible with PCGS slabs, the reeding/edge can not be seen by the purchaser
similar stories exist with 1945-P FB Mercurys the bands are killer in this issue
you need to know all dies for a mintage? and their marriages?
I do not feel pics are the answer either for many coins
<< <i>If you become knowledgeable about coins, you won't get burned. The slab is inconsequential.
TRUTH >>
That works for us . But for newbies that are taught to buy slabbed till you learn enough to grade and such this might be a problem.