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Questions .... and answers.... concerning PCGS Secure Plus
DonWillis
Posts: 961 ✭✭✭
It's been a long day here in Ft. Worth. Actually it's been a long few months as we got PCGS Secure Plus ready for launch.
I spent most of the day answering questions about the new product here on the bourse floor. I was happy that I didn't get a single question that we hadn't already discussed before the launch. But it is obvious that it's going to take a while for most people to understand the new product.
So I am here to answer any questions you may have. I'll answer some for about an hour tonight and catch up tomorrow morning. Please don't post comments or OT - they will be deleted.
Fire away.
I spent most of the day answering questions about the new product here on the bourse floor. I was happy that I didn't get a single question that we hadn't already discussed before the launch. But it is obvious that it's going to take a while for most people to understand the new product.
So I am here to answer any questions you may have. I'll answer some for about an hour tonight and catch up tomorrow morning. Please don't post comments or OT - they will be deleted.
Fire away.
0
Comments
Is the technology similar to what is used for Lasik vision correction surgery (although obviously nothing is being vaporized here!)
will it be used to change numbers, even reduce them in one grade, of the pop report?
can it detect the obverse from one coin and the reverse from another, should someone try to pair two to create a fake scarcity?
Or, consider even a 1995-W Silver Eagle where a PR69DCAM is about a $3,000 coin and a PR70DCAM around a $40,000+ coin at this time. The + service would be very interesting (and desireable) for a PR69DCAM coin I would think. Thanks for considering this question.
Wondercoin
Do you see the technology as having any application for reducing counterfeit coins in the market place?
I will ask a question about the new product. Does the reception the product has received here, from PCGS Mesaage Board members, meet the expectations of PCGS? The reception could seem lukewarm reading the polls and posts this evening. Is this as expected?
Best wishes,
Eric
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
seems like the great power of this technology is greatly limited when the bad guys can side step it by not choosing to use the service in the first place. once PCGS has this as their standard then I can see it's potential as the Big One.
also, would PCGS ever consider licensing this technology to other grading companies and sharing their database info of coins?? That would seem to really benefit the hobby if all of the companies had this power to ID the coin.
Edited to add:
Don, thanks for your answers posted below
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Support for obvious subjective nature of grading comment- One person will submit a coin 4 different times and get 4 different grades- Ranging from Genuine, AU58 to MS63- As a collector/registry member/investory- Will Secure Plus lock the coin in at Genuine or its assigned Numerical grade?
i.e. Submit a 62 coin with minimum grade or 62+?
edit: I guess mine may not be a Secure Plus question....but still curious.
Do you believe there will be a time in the not too distant future when PCGS will employ their Secure methodology/technology to analyze, interpret and record coins already in a PCGS holder? I ask because this might be a terrific tool for coin recovery that could be extended to those who have many older generation holders and who might not want to lose the holder for the new service. Thanks.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
can one get a grade evaluation for a coin already in a secure plus holder?
Also is this PCGS coin side version of what we have in the paper side. were we have PPQ for premium quality is that what the + is going to be about?
Thanks for handling a few of these. You must be beat.
I'll add an addendum to Tom's question.
Can a regrade request that doesn't achieve a "+" be returned in its current holder?
Lance.
msmorrisne - we are starting off with Express service and above. We don't know what the demand will be and what it will take to handle it. So we are taking it one day at a time. The pop report will be much cleaner for Secure Plus. Over time it will help to clean up what is already there. It will help in couterfeit detection but that's not what it is designed to do.
wondercoin - as the grades get higher the gap between them shrinks. The difference between a 69 and 70 can be one tiny tick. I honestly don't know how we can slice it much thinner.
pakasmon - I think this will help with counterfeit detection. Everyone should keep in mind that this is only day one. there will be more to come.
magikbilly - we really didn't know what to expect. This is complicated new product and there are lots of permutations to consider. It will take some time for everything to be understood.
Longacre - a coin can be in a PCGS Secure Plus holder but not have a + grade.
How long does it take to scan a coin with the machine? Is it a quick process?
-Paul
Sorry if someone has already asked. I haven't read the entire thread.
So, if a coin in PCGS Secure Plus is at some time cracked out (stupid, imho), and put into a dansco, or some other holder which is generally, over time, considered NT, but later sent back in for grading/slabbing again (could be a year/2 years/etc) and it has toned over time, will it be GENUINED (AT/QT) due to being the same coin but having some toning?
Will this be pretty strict or the finalizer using their judgement (ie....some coins have NT'ed in slabs while others have been gassed....will a broad brush stroke be used or will common sense and knowledge trump?)?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Goldbully - there should be a list of new prices on our website. Walkthroughs - $125, Express - $65, Show Gold - $55 (this is from memory - check the site)
illini420 - we have no plans to make this mandatory. We have to ease our way into this. We can't just shut off the existing services. Plus the market may not like it. We may license it someday ... maybe after we recoup the millions we have spent.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
If a coin has previously been submitted for grading can it be submitted for review for a plus designation or would it be a complete regrade?
Will the 1st time a coin is graded using PCGS Secure Plus be considered "the right grade"? And, if so, will subsequent resubmittals be absolutely worthless?
Will the fee for resubmittals be partially refunded if the coin has already been submitted a number of times if it is just viewed as "sorry, not going to change the grade"? Or, will submitters be told that it has already been submitted? (I can see where new owners wouldn't know about submission attempts and may disagree with the grade and resubmit).
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Will PCGS and NGC be sharing their scan databases to cut down on stolen coins?
Have "fingerprinting" scans been taking place on high-end coins in advance of this announcement?
Can I submit my Poor-01 Morgans for Secure+ holders?
What series are being done?
blue62vette - there are no minimum grades with PCGS Secure Plus. there are no Crossovers either.
OnlyBuffalos - PCGS Secure Plus is for US and World coins.
TomB - at this time the coin needs to be raw for us to laser it. can't do it in holders.
MsMorrisine - + grades are only available for PCGS Secure Plus coins. I don't understand your second question.
once a coin is graded and in a Secure Plus holder, can someone who is hemming and hawing send it back in (without even cracking it first) for a grade RE-evaluation... or is the grade fixed once and for all ???
(essentially answered it with your reply to atarian a couple of posts down)
Thanks.
Ikeigwin - regrades work under PCGS Secure Plus exactly as they do on the regular line.
BigE - no. You have to send them through the process.
coinkid855 - it takes between 35 -45 seconds. Including handling.
gsaguy - we will be able to tell if a coin has been dipped. But dipping is not a reason to no-grade a coin (unless it's overdone). So dipping should not be a problem.
Bochiman - I used this exact scenario as an example today. Of course the finalizer will use his judgement. To me the question is does the toning looks like it was deliberately applied or did it happen naturally. The coins broken out and put in an album in the basement for 3 years probably will be fine.
smokincoin - we will not be placing genuine coins in secure plus holders.
7070 - we had to set some limits to start off. we don't know what to expect and we can't commit to do everything. we may change at some point but we decided on 45 - 68 to start.
MsMorrisone - you ask a lot of questions!! This is a good one though and important. NO NO NO - just because a coin is in a Secure Plus holder does not mean that the grade can never be changed. Of course it can be re-evaluated. All that is for certain is that we will have the grading history of the coin and we will be able to refer to it before the new grade is assigned. IT DOES NOT MEAN WE CANNOT CHANGE THE GRADE. (I am shouting!)
HalfStrike - most MS60 & MS61 coins are pretty beat up. Putting a + on those grades would not be appropriate (like lipstick on a pig).
How did you arrive at the values in the PCGS Price Guide for the '+' grades so soon? (with no transactions having yet occurred at those levels)
fcloud - sorry I missed your question. Yes we have introduced some anti-counterfeiting devices in the new label on PCGS Secure Plus. We have another project underway that will more directly address your statement.
staircoins - we "primed" the pricing by using a formula: the lesser of, either 20% of the spread between the base grade and the next grade up, or 50% of the base grade. It's just a start - and I believe very conservative. Watch these prices they will be changing fast.
Thanks, Robert
For most moderns, the + would not matter. For example, a 2010 Silver Eagle that sells for $80 in MS70 and $30 in MS69 - the + is meaningless. Ditto for myriad other moderns.
But, there are a number of moderns where the spread between a 69 and a 70 is as huge (on a % basis) as nearly any classic coin today, ESPECIALLY FOR PCGS GRADED COINS . I gave you an example in the 1995-W Silver Eagle with a current spread of $3,000 in PR69 and $40,000+ in PR70. There are many, many more similar examples. For these, the + would be very useful. And, where there is only a tiny tick on the entire coin, it sounds like you are describing a PR69+ quality coin. For example, PCGS has never graded a 1973-S Clad Ike in PR70DCAM (or a 1974-S Clad or even a 1976-S Ty 2). After 20+ years of grading, PR69DCAM is top grade. Yet, a coin that has but a single mark or two and earned the PR69DC+ grade might be very, very desireable to modern collectors. Thanks for considering this. I read from your first reply that this may not be the time to expand the + service beyond the 68 grade. But, maybe one day.
Wondercoin
I would imagine that PCGS would release the images if the coins were stolen & the photos needed for ID. These images would be even better than your standard digital camera, for ID purposes.
wondercoin - I understand your point. My point is we can't get any more granular than a single tick mark on a coin. Sometimes that's all that separates a 69 from a 70.
Q: Will a 45+ count 45.5 or 47.5, and will a 53+ be 54, etc?
Luminosity (reflectance) like a traditional digital picture,
or a 3-D surface map of the coin's contours ?
I also would like to know about how the + is going to be the top 10 to 15% of the grade ( or top of the top for the grade).I would imagine that over time that window will expand to over 10%/15%. Do you see the + grade in time becoming a symbol to mean Premium Luster Quality ( like how the paper side has a premium paper quality)?