For you Lincoln Cent collectors....an interesting coin
FinallyHere
Posts: 821 ✭✭✭
I was recently asked to image this 1958 DD cent - thought I'd post it for your thoughts - it is NOT mine.
0
Comments
BTW - A magnificent job on the photo, not to mention one of the neatest DDO's in existence for American coinage
Now all we need is an image of the elusive third coin....
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Wasnt there someone recently here saying these were fakes?
I myself am holding for one with a slightly better strike.
<< <i>Why isn't the date doubled as well
Look a little closer, as I believe it is, just not near as much of the other lettering.
No I'm not a Lincoln collector but if I had the money this one or one like it would be on my hit list!
Probably a Prime Example of what can go wrong at the US Mint and the end result when they find out about it!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>Why isn't the date doubled as well
Look a little closer, as I believe it is, just not near as much of the other lettering. >>
It is mainly due to the way the hub was misaligned when the doubling occurred. The 1958 DDO is a result of a pivoted hub, whereas other major DDOs like the 1955 and 1969-S are a result of rotated hubs.
On any doubled die, the doubling gets stronger the further you are away from the axis of rotation. On a rotated hub doubled die, the axis is in the center of the die, so the doubling gets stronger the further out toward the rim you go. If you look at IN GOD WE TRUST, the doubling shows equally strong on all lettering because the entire motto is the same distance from the center. Imagine stacking two transparent photos of a Lincoln cent, poking a hole right in the center, then rotating the top image around that hole. The result will look like the 1955 or 1969-S doubled dies.
On the 1958 DDO, the axis of rotation was not the center point of the hub but a point along the rim around 5:00. As a result, the doubling is stronger opposite this point around 11:00 on the obverse (remember, it is stronger the further you get away from the axis of rotation). Because the date is very close to the axis, you don't see as much doubling. Take the same two transparent pictures from the previous paragraph, only now poke the hole on the rim right at the tip of Abe's vest. Rotate the second image around that hole and the result will look like the 1958 DDO.
One of the strongest arguments I've heard for the 1958 DDO being a genuine Mint product is that the various forms of doubling were not closely studied or identified in the early 1960s when these coins first appeared. Someone counterfeiting a coin like this would have undoubtedly mimicked the form of doubling on the 1955 DDO cents when making his dies.
John Wexler has an excellent summary of the different forms of hub doubling in several of his books, I'd recommend you pursue his writings if you are interested in learning more (he taught me everything I know).
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Hmmmmmmmmmm,......................... I wonder if it was ever "Monetized" by the mint?
<< <i>thought I'd post it for your thoughts >>
which are, "fake"
K S
K S
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Why isn't the date doubled as well
Look a little closer, as I believe it is, just not near as much of the other lettering. >>
It is mainly due to the way the hub was misaligned when the doubling occurred. The 1958 DDO is a result of a pivoted hub, whereas other major DDOs like the 1955 and 1969-S are a result of rotated hubs.
On any doubled die, the doubling gets stronger the further you are away from the axis of rotation. On a rotated hub doubled die, the axis is in the center of the die, so the doubling gets stronger the further out toward the rim you go. If you look at IN GOD WE TRUST, the doubling shows equally strong on all lettering because the entire motto is the same distance from the center. Imagine stacking two transparent photos of a Lincoln cent, poking a hole right in the center, then rotating the top image around that hole. The result will look like the 1955 or 1969-S doubled dies.
On the 1958 DDO, the axis of rotation was not the center point of the hub but a point along the rim around 5:00. As a result, the doubling is stronger opposite this point around 11:00 on the obverse (remember, it is stronger the further you get away from the axis of rotation). Because the date is very close to the axis, you don't see as much doubling. Take the same two transparent pictures from the previous paragraph, only now poke the hole on the rim right at the tip of Abe's vest. Rotate the second image around that hole and the result will look like the 1958 DDO.
One of the strongest arguments I've heard for the 1958 DDO being a genuine Mint product is that the various forms of doubling were not closely studied or identified in the early 1960s when these coins first appeared. Someone counterfeiting a coin like this would have undoubtedly mimicked the form of doubling on the 1955 DDO cents when making his dies.
John Wexler has an excellent summary of the different forms of hub doubling in several of his books, I'd recommend you pursue his writings if you are interested in learning more (he taught me everything I know).
Sean Reynolds >>
Terrific explanation. Having seen a few writeups trying to describe how different doubling occurs, this is the clearest.
Mike, great imaging as usual and thanks for putting it on display. Now when you're through playing with it
send it back to me.
R.I.P. Bear
which are, "fake"
K S >>
What makes these coins fake?
Why? I suppose I'm wasting my time, but I still check all of my 1958's for doubled dies anyway, just in case.
Why? I suppose I'm wasting my time, but I still check all of my 1958's for doubled dies anyway, just in case. >>
What about the coin in the OP, or the two slabbed by PCGS?
What Id like to know if any of these slabbed coins have been examined by anyone at the Mint... If not, why hasnt this been done?
That should clear up some of the questions about these coins.
Anyone know where the few examples were found?
The Penny Lady®
Another great thread, same forum
...and if you're not tired of reading, yet another
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>Great picture of a highly desireable coin.
Hmmmmmmmmmm,......................... I wonder if it was ever "Monetized" by the mint?
Says the government...
" ... well, we don't have any records of 1958 DD's being released to the public, so that must be stolen property!"
On a serious note, great photo of a classic Lincoln variety!
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
I am so glad the A$$hole in Washington no longer owns this coin.
I am also soooo Happy that Sam Lukes never got any money from this sale and ESM (Peter) got his coin for about $40,000 less.
Thank you Mike Printz for imaging the coin
PCGS has graded all 3 of the 1958 DDO cents
I have a letter for the U.S. Treasury stating these coins are genuine mint products.
Stewart Blay
I am also soooo Happy that Sam Lukes never got any money from this sale and ESM (Peter) got his coin for about $40,000 less.
Thank you Mike Printz for imaging the coin
PCGS has graded all 3 of the 1958 DDO cents
I have a letter for the U.S. Treasury stating these coins are genuine mint products.
Stewart Blay >>
<< <i><<<< thought I'd post it for your thoughts >>
which are, "fake"
K S >>
What makes these coins fake? >>
i dunno if it is fake.
here's the deal, IF it is a genuine coin, then imo it should be A HE11UVA expensive rarity, i would guess surpassing the 1969 ddo.
but for some reason, that coin does not look right to me. it remindes me too much of that 1959 wheat reverse cent. like it was struck from very convincing fake dies
but then again we're talking bout a digi-pic, not the coin in hand, so i would hope someone will post scoped images of die markers for future reference.
K S
Ryan
I thought these sold for more than the 69-S DDO?
Lukes had one listed for $200k... The last time I saw a 64RD 69-S DDO it sold for around $120k...
Nice picture. Thanks for posting the pic of my coin, I just couldn't get that good of a picture
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i><<<< thought I'd post it for your thoughts >>
which are, "fake"
K S >>
What makes these coins fake? >>
i dunno if it is fake.
here's the deal, IF it is a genuine coin, then imo it should be A HE11UVA expensive rarity, i would guess surpassing the 1969 ddo.
but for some reason, that coin does not look right to me. it remindes me too much of that 1959 wheat reverse cent. like it was struck from very convincing fake dies
but then again we're talking bout a digi-pic, not the coin in hand, so i would hope someone will post scoped images of die markers for future reference.
K S >>
Perhaps it is too rare. Being virtually uncollectible, people don't try to collect it.
TD
The price of gold is set by faith, or lack of, in the currency it is priced in.