Dipping / Acetone

Durmex · June 23, 2009 1:14AM

After seeing so many responses where a coin that has been dipped for 2 seconds is considered like damaged goods,
why is it acceptable to use acetone on a coin. Most postings seem to think that that form of cleaning is fine.
I'm curious and do not have a dealer nearby.
Thanks.

Robb · June 23, 2009 1:17AM

Acetone does not eat the original skin.

InternetJunky · June 23, 2009 1:17AM

I've never done it, but I believe it's accepted because the Acetone doesn't physically or chemically change the coin, it only removes the foreign matter off of the surfaces. For example, if you dip a toned coin, it will not remove the toning of the coin.

Correct me if I'm wrong folks, I've never dipped before.

PerryHall · June 23, 2009 1:39AM

Doesn't acetone change the color on proof copper?

19Lyds · June 23, 2009 1:56AM

I did my own little dip test with a 1974-S 40% Silver Clad Proof taken from a sealed Brown Box. I chose a proof because it would show evidence of damage more easily than a circulated coin. I also chose a silver proof since silver seems to be the metal content of choice for E-Z-Est dipping.

I took predip photos and then took as similar a photo as possible after each dip cycle. To speed the process up I only took 4 views of the same approximate location. The chosen locations have reference flaws.

The subject coin would probably grade PF68 DCAM.

Dip Times were:

2 Seconds
5 Seconds (7 Seconds total)
10 Seconds (17 Seconds total)
20 Seconds (37 Seconds total)
40 Seconds (77 Seconds total)
60 Seconds (137 Seconds total)

Dip solution was E-Z-Est
Rinse:

Tape Water
then Distilled Water
then 91% Alcohol

Before Dipping

After all Dipping (137 second emersion time)

All photo's can be viewed here.

Given the fact that a typical dip lasts 2 to 4 seconds tops, the last photo shows the results of 68 2 second dips or 34 4 second dips.
That's a lot of dips over the life of a coin.

Draw your own conclusions with regard to dipping.

Durmex · June 23, 2009 2:34AM

Thanks for the good replies, and thanks for sharing the great pics of your test!

YaHa · June 23, 2009 2:41AM

<< I did my own little dip test with a 1974-S 40% Silver Clad Proof taken from a sealed Brown Box. I chose a proof because it would show evidence of damage more easily than a circulated coin. I also chose a silver proof since silver seems to be the metal content of choice for E-Z-Est dipping.

I took predip photos and then took as similar a photo as possible after each dip cycle. To speed the process up I only took 4 views of the same approximate location. The chosen locations have reference flaws.

The subject coin would probably grade PF68 DCAM.

Dip Times were:

2 Seconds
5 Seconds (7 Seconds total)
10 Seconds (17 Seconds total)
20 Seconds (37 Seconds total)
40 Seconds (77 Seconds total)
60 Seconds (137 Seconds total)

Dip solution was E-Z-Est
Rinse:

Tape Water
then Distilled Water
then 91% Alcohol

Before Dipping

After all Dipping (137 second emersion time)

All photo's can be viewed here.

Given the fact that a typical dip lasts 2 to 4 seconds tops, the last photo shows the results of 68 2 second dips or 34 4 second dips.
That's a lot of dips over the life of a coin.

Draw your own conclusions with regard to dipping. >>

Very nice conclusions Lee, I see the little dark spot on the cheek dissapeared after the 2/3rd dip.. Nice coin.. Has any evidence of spots come back to any of the coins you have ever dipped Lee?

19Lyds · June 23, 2009 2:44AM

No.

Edited to add: If you are referring to that small brown spot close to IKEs cheek or laugh line, it was gone on the first dip George. (See below)

adamlaneus · June 23, 2009 2:46AM

Interesting to note that while some marks disappeared, some marks appeared.

I'm talking about the diagonal streaks around the eye and lips that show up in the after pictures but are not there in the before pictures.

Did you hit or skim the devices on the coin at all during the dipping process, or are those streaks around the eyes and lips caused by etching?

MORGANHUNTER2 · June 23, 2009 3:02AM

Lee, I have to ask this. Did you see a noticeable difference before you dipped the coin over all from when you completed this?

Did it look like the chemicals in e-zest altered the skin of the coin in any fashion as in hazing the mirror fields?

19Lyds · June 23, 2009 3:24AM

<< Interesting to note that while some marks disappeared, some marks appeared.

I'm talking about the diagonal streaks around the eye and lips that show up in the after pictures but are not there in the before pictures.

Did you hit or skim the devices on the coin at all during the dipping process, or are those streaks around the eyes and lips caused by etching? >>

All just the lighting angle Adam:

The streaks were there as indicated by the arrows.

George's spot is highlighted as well.

The entire point behind the test was to show that even 2.25 minutes in E-Z-Est shows no noticeable damage. Folks way over play the notion that dipping coins is bad when in reality more coins have been dipped than folks actually realize. The truth of the matter is that some coins should simply never be dipped and doing so will ruin them for future collectors while other coins are ok to dip.

Never, ever, dip any coin that is less than uncirculated and/or that has pleasing toning or a pleasing appearance and/or has ANY signs of wear and/or is copper.
If you have reservations then pay attention to them!
If you don't know or are not sure, then doing nothing is way better than ruining a coin.

direwolf1972 · June 23, 2009 4:06AM

Morgans seem to be prone to damage by dipping more than Ikes. I have seen Morgans that have been dipped less than a total of 10 seconds in E-Zest coming out with a look that I think looks a lot like galvanized steel.

I rarely dip anything but in some instances a quick dip is needed.

I always think the best advice is to practice with coins that have little value and take it easy with the dip until you learn the limits for the series you collect.

Robb · June 23, 2009 4:11AM

<< Never, ever, dip any coin that is less than uncirculated and/or that has pleasing toning or a pleasing appearance and/or has ANY signs of wear and/or is copper. >>

Never, ever, dip any coin that is less than uncirculated and/or that has pleasing toning or a pleasing appearance and/or has ANY signs of wear and/or is copper.

Never, ever, dip any coin that is less than uncirculated and/or that has pleasing toning or a pleasing appearance and/or has ANY signs of wear and/or is copper.

Never, ever, dip any coin that is less than uncirculated and/or that has pleasing toning or a pleasing appearance and/or has ANY signs of wear and/or is copper.

Never, ever, dip any coin that is less than uncirculated and/or that has pleasing toning or a pleasing appearance and/or has ANY signs of wear and/or is copper.

That's where the major mistakes are made, IMO- dipping the AU coins.

19Lyds · June 23, 2009 4:15PM

<< Lee, I have to ask this. Did you see a noticeable difference before you dipped the coin over all from when you completed this?

Did it look like the chemicals in e-zest altered the skin of the coin in any fashion as in hazing the mirror fields? >>

No noticeable difference was observed nor did any hazing appear. IMO, hazing could be the end result of a poor rinse and drying.

astrorat · June 23, 2009 4:24PM

Pure acetone (e.g. ultra pure HPLC grade and not the swill you get at Home Depot), does not interact with silver, gold, copper or their salts. Thus, it will not adversely affect the surface of a coin unless something inappropriate is done during the process, such as mechanical friction, rinsing in impure water, etc. It removes most, if not all, the organic material from a coin's surface. Heavily contaminated coins may require repeated exposure or even mechanical assistance, but the pure acetone itself, is inert to silver, gold, and copper (including bronze).

Lane

GoldenEyeNumismatics · June 23, 2009 5:04PM

<< Acetone does not eat the original skin. >>

If you soak it for 24+ hours, it can.

determined · June 23, 2009 5:49PM

<< Pure acetone (e.g. ultra pure HPLC grade and not the swill you get at Home Depot) ... >>

Where does one find pure grade acetone? Who carries it?

Thanks in advance.

greghansen · June 23, 2009 8:08PM

I did my own little dip test with a 1974-S 40% Silver Clad Proof taken from a sealed Brown Box. I chose a proof because it would show evidence of damage more easily than a circulated coin. I also chose a silver proof since silver seems to be the metal content of choice for E-Z-Est dipping.

An interesting test and set of photo's but I would offer one comment about the selection of the test coin. I don't necessarily agree with the premise that a proof coin would show evidence of damage more easily. At least 'dip' damage of the type we are talking about here. Proof coins have very 'flat', mirrored surfaces. The dies are prepared that way and with relatively few strikes the coins never wear and develop metal flow lines that are associated with most mint state circulating coins. It is the flow lines which account for the easily recognizeable cartwheel luster one observes when rotating a mint state silver coin under a pin point light source. These microscopic flow lines are far more susceptible to the acid than flat mirrored surfaces. As a result the natural luster of a mint state silver coin can be negatively impacted far more easily than a proof coin with the dipping process. If you doubt this, just take an inexpensive high grade unc. silver coin like a washington quarter or silver kennedy and run the same test that 19Lyds did. I guarantee you that after two minutes in the dip, that thing is going to come out looking very dull, ugly and with all the 'flash' gone. Proof coins with flat mirrored type surfaces reflect light in a different way. I've never dipped a proof coin, so was very interested in 19Lyds test and was not suprised to see that the proof coin held up far better to a dip than a mint state coin would.

7Jaguars · June 23, 2009 9:00PM

I want to understand how pure acetone exposure for any length of time will alter the metal surface. It should most definately be non-reactive with the metal be it silver, copper or gold and have not seen it to ever do that . I will call impurity/mixture with some other substance on that phenomenon.

WaterSport · June 23, 2009 10:37PM

Some info on Acetone and copper - Yes, proof coins turn orange if dipped in acetone - don't do it. Yes, long term soaking in acetone begins to remove the "Thinnest" layer of crude on the highest points i.e., the rims. This will be even further noted if the coin is not placed on a towel while soaking. Moving the coin around in the bottom of the glass (not plastic!) container will really screw it up. Each coin needs a different bath, so get a roll and experiment. For me, any circulated cent now gets an acetone bath of some sort before heading off to the plastic factory. The little soak makes a big change with eye appeal and often and IMHO is graded more accurately without the dirt stuck between the wheat lines.

WS

PerryHall · June 23, 2009 11:14PM

WaterSport---It sounds like acetone does have some reaction with copper if it can change the color to orange. I guess anyone cleaning organic deposits off old copper should stick with long soaks in olive oil or mineral oil.

MidLifeCrisis · June 23, 2009 11:41PM

Neither dipping nor use of acetone is acceptable to me.

I'm just picky like that...

WaterSport · June 23, 2009 11:45PM

The jury is still out about long olive oil soaks beacuse of salts in some olive oil. Ironically, the solution after soaking in olive oil is...you guessed it - Acetone.

direwolf1972 · June 24, 2009 3:24AM

<< Neither dipping nor use of acetone is acceptable to me.

I'm just picky like that... >>

The is no way I'd ever send a submission in without a ritualistic acetone bath.

I know some who have had several coins come back with PVC residue, out of 10 submissions so far I've yet to have a single coin come back BB'd for PVC. I havent submitted since last Nov. so genuine wasnt an option for me yet.

Since acetone is nonreactive, I cant justify the chance that a coin will BB. I'd rather spend 2 bucks and a few minutes.

MidLifeCrisis · June 24, 2009 5:57AM

<< The is no way I'd ever send a submission in without a ritualistic acetone bath. >>

That's too bad.

Maybe I'm just naive...maybe using acetone is a widely accepted practice among collectors.

That's also too bad.

Why can't we just leave our coins alone?

PerryHall · June 24, 2009 6:10AM

<< 

<< The is no way I'd ever send a submission in without a ritualistic acetone bath. >>

That's too bad.

Maybe I'm just naive...maybe using acetone is a widely accepted practice among collectors.

That's also too bad.

Why can't we just leave our coins alone?

>>

You would leave PVC on your coins even though it's slowly eating into the coin' surface?

frnklnlvr · June 24, 2009 7:20AM

The top TPG's use acetone sometimes even though they don't admit to it.

MidLifeCrisis · June 24, 2009 7:24AM

<< You would leave PVC on your coins even though it's slowly eating into the coin' surface? >>

I wouldn't buy a coin with PVC.

But I only collect slabbed coins. In the rare case that I agree to buy a raw coin, I do so with the understanding that it must be certified by PCGS or NGC or the deal is off.

If I did make a mistake and buy a coin that had PVC on it, I'd send it to NCS and then I'd sell it.

ksteelheader · June 24, 2009 7:25AM

<< Morgans seem to be prone to damage by dipping more than Ikes. I have seen Morgans that have been dipped less than a total of 10 seconds in E-Zest coming out with a look that I think looks a lot like galvanized steel.

I rarely dip anything but in some instances a quick dip is needed.

I always think the best advice is to practice with coins that have little value and take it easy with the dip until you learn the limits for the series you collect. >>

Never, ever, dip in full strength ezest. I use one part ezest to 19 parts water, and only dip for a few seconds.

MORGANHUNTER2 · June 24, 2009 7:25AM

<< The top TPG's use acetone sometimes even though they don't admit to it. >>

Especially if the coin in question was in one of their holders and the coin changed ugly while in it..

Yes they have!!!

gmherps13 · June 24, 2009 7:29AM

it's amazing what a little dipping can do

Steve27 · June 24, 2009 7:44AM

<< 

<< You would leave PVC on your coins even though it's slowly eating into the coin' surface? >>

I wouldn't buy a coin with PVC.

But I only collect slabbed coins. In the rare case that I agree to buy a raw coin, I do so with the understanding that it must be certified by PCGS or NGC or the deal is off.

If I did make a mistake and buy a coin that had PVC on it, I'd send it to NCS and then I'd sell it. >>

Since you only buy slabbed coins, what you're really saying is you buy coins that have been conserved by other people.

MidLifeCrisis · June 24, 2009 8:43AM

<< 

<< 

<< You would leave PVC on your coins even though it's slowly eating into the coin' surface? >>

I wouldn't buy a coin with PVC.

But I only collect slabbed coins. In the rare case that I agree to buy a raw coin, I do so with the understanding that it must be certified by PCGS or NGC or the deal is off.

If I did make a mistake and buy a coin that had PVC on it, I'd send it to NCS and then I'd sell it. >>

Since you only buy slabbed coins, what you're really saying is you buy coins that have been conserved by other people. >>

Yeah, probably...especially since most of my coins are from the 18th century...but not if I know about it.

I think it's logical to assume most old coins have been conserved in some fashion over the years. I buy from specialist dealers who are experts in their chosen area. They value originality and they know I do. So I rely on them to help keep me from buying a coin that they or I can tell has been conserved.

saintguru · June 24, 2009 8:55AM

First, I have never dipped a coin...EVER.

However, I have heard from the top people in the business who are against doctors, NCS and whatever that acetone is 100% safe with gold coins for removing dirt, grease or other funky stuff without marring any of the coin's ooriginal surfaces. If that's the case then I guess it's ok.

LRCTom · June 24, 2009 10:18AM

Acetone won't chemically affect a coin. It's not reactive with any metal. Unlike "dip": EZest, fka Jeweluster, or MS70, or....what other ones are out there? These chemically react with silver especially, but also copper and nickel, and produce varying results. Sometimes good in the short-term, often not. But generally bad in the long-term, IMHO, as the atmosphere or paper holders or albums or whatever contact that metal recently-stripped of oxide (toning), in the presence of whatever else is around. and do unpredictable things.

Acetone also won't affect dirt. It may remove greasy stuff on the coin and make dirt more easily removable, but it won't affect the dirt itself. Water is a better solvent than acetone for that, but often some physical manipulation is required. A light soft-tipped brush, applied gently with water, can work well. People use soap solutions in water, which if rinsed well can be OK for dirt removal. With physical manipulations, be careful with the softer metals: gold is the softest, followed by silver, copper, and nickel.

Acetone will very effectively dissolve and remove PVC residue from vinyl flips or old albums with vinyl slides. It can also dissolve and remove the soft, slippery green or black oxidation that can occur on copper coins, usually seen in protected areas (I bet you've all seen it on old Lincolns), which also slides away easily with a toothpick but is difficult to remove 100% this way. This is not to be confused with that hard green verdegris (we chemists just call it corrosion), which requires mechanical removal. It's the copper version of rust. About the only way to improve that is picking away at it...the large cent guys soften it up a bit with olive oil...patience required.... and then use a rose thorn. Depending on your skill (mine is pretty bad, and I can't hold those little things in my fat fingers!), the end result may be not be any better than the original.

Hope this helps clarify a bit,

...Tom

saintguru · June 24, 2009 10:25AM

I think Tom nailed it.

DieClash · June 24, 2009 11:04AM

I use acetone routinely. And I've never had to bathe a Proof copper coin in acetone. Acetone removes, sticky, gluey, greasy, and dirty residues from coins. Most circulated coins have a nice layer of human finger oil on them, so an extended acetone bath is quite effective at removing even the most stubborn buildup of dirt/goop.

I have put Unc. and Proof non-copper coins in an acetone bath. The subject coins having been stored in PVC flips or Whitman-like folders and albums. In my experience the coins look better after the bath having removed any surface contaminants without affecting the toning, luster of the coin.

I've dipped both silver Morgans and clad proof coins in e-Z-est. I've not dipped more than a couple dozen and I've been pleased with the results. Especially for removing haze from modern Proof coins. I've always operated by the principle that no coin should be dipped in e-Z-est for more than 15 seconds. Although I am encouraged by Lee's results with modern clad proofs!

What amazes me is the "original skin" purists who won't even clean the dirt and grunge from coins, because it is part of the "Patina".

Screw that. As soon a a coin leaves the mint presses, the surfaces begin to react with atmospheric gases and moisture. There's no such thing as "original skin". It's all a bunch of B.S.

What's more is that TPGs grade toned coins as MS. MS my butt. The mint didn't press coins with beautiful rainbow toning. These so-called MS Toners with "original skin" have reacted with air and moisture to produce surface chemicals that generate the thin-film interference effect that we call toning.

Anyway, if you dip a coin with an acid-based product, then experiment with low-value specimens before you screw up a real rarity.

The really experienced doctors out there have the nads to mess with real classic rarities. Like the 1839 Gobrecht $1 that was dipped and then AT'd and slabbed by a prominent TPG. The AT'd version brought about $10 grand more than the blast white version of the same coin at auction.

People advise not to "mess" with coins, but everyone does and the so-called experts make lots of money doctoring coins. I think the secret that everyone is trying to hide is that acid-dipping, while it may destroy the value of certain coins, is first and formost the best method for improving a coins "maketability". Which is an enitirely different subject matter.

This do as I say, not as I do is BS, IMHO.

19Lyds · June 24, 2009 3:12PM

<< I did my own little dip test with a 1974-S 40% Silver Clad Proof taken from a sealed Brown Box. I chose a proof because it would show evidence of damage more easily than a circulated coin. I also chose a silver proof since silver seems to be the metal content of choice for E-Z-Est dipping.

An interesting test and set of photo's but I would offer one comment about the selection of the test coin. I don't necessarily agree with the premise that a proof coin would show evidence of damage more easily. At least 'dip' damage of the type we are talking about here. Proof coins have very 'flat', mirrored surfaces. The dies are prepared that way and with relatively few strikes the coins never wear and develop metal flow lines that are associated with most mint state circulating coins. It is the flow lines which account for the easily recognizeable cartwheel luster one observes when rotating a mint state silver coin under a pin point light source. These microscopic flow lines are far more susceptible to the acid than flat mirrored surfaces. As a result the natural luster of a mint state silver coin can be negatively impacted far more easily than a proof coin with the dipping process. If you doubt this, just take an inexpensive high grade unc. silver coin like a washington quarter or silver kennedy and run the same test that 19Lyds did. I guarantee you that after two minutes in the dip, that thing is going to come out looking very dull, ugly and with all the 'flash' gone. Proof coins with flat mirrored type surfaces reflect light in a different way. I've never dipped a proof coin, so was very interested in 19Lyds test and was not suprised to see that the proof coin held up far better to a dip than a mint state coin would. >>

When I get back into town after July 5th, I'll conduct another test using a business strike coin.

Dipping / Acetone

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