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1953-S FBL Franklin -- "REJECTED" !!! (w/TrueView)
bushmaster8
Posts: 5,616 ✭
"Wars are really ugly! They're dirty
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
0
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If user =bushmaster8 AND coin =1953-S Franklin then NO FBL FOR YOU!!!!
here's pic of mine, which you've seen in person: FooDude's (I tried to link just the '53-S but it didn't work)
Maybe you could rub your slabbed '53-S on my '53-S for good luck on for the next submission try
<< <i>Greg,
here's pic of mine, which you've seen in person: FooDude's (I tried to link just the '53-S but it didn't work)
Maybe you could rub your slabbed '53-S on my '53-S for good luck on for the next submission try
Ah. I know the solution. You need to have it pedigreed.
It FBL'd before the pedigree.
Consider yourself lucky that you got a 65 on it.
<< <i>Upper bell left and right don't look very well defined? >>
PCGS doesn't consider the upper set of lines. At least in theory. However, foodudes 53-S has great upper lines , but kind of iffy lower set IMHO.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
Only the bottom (2) bell lines are considered, not the top lines. Really close coin - a coin that may have qualified in the "early days"? And, ditto for many Roosie dimes as well - today's standard appears to be quite different from the earliest grading on Roosies, especially many clad pieces.
Very, very "tight" standard these days - a coin that grades 65FBL for a 53-S simply has to be a "moose" today IMHO. And, from time to time some of the earlier graded coins do get changed - e.g. a key date 1949-S Dime in MS67FB that was recently changed to MS67 with PCGS paying the difference.
Wondercoin
And a very vivid Pass And Stow.
I
I may not be the best grader in the world, but I'm not that bad on FBL Frankies.
Super coin Bushmaster!!!
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>I've seen that coin in hand. It has better lines than any PCGS Slabbed 53-S that IS labeled FBL.
I may not be the best grader in the world, but I'm not that bad on FBL Frankies.
Super coin Bushmaster!!! >>
If James saw the coin in hand and it has stronger bell line`s then most of the slabbed one's out there , and Wondercoin states it's pretty strong AND MadMarty comments about it :
then no doubt it IS a FBL ........but as said -in todays environment - no go
U.S. Type Set
<< <i>Sorry, Bushmaster, but that one's not even close. Too weak on the left, and lots o' junk to the left side of the crack.
Consider yourself lucky that you got a 65 on it. >>
I'm sorry to have to agree.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
Now, without the gun, I'd say probably. Real close call. From the pics, got no problems with the completeness of the lines near the crack, or the roundess to the left. The area that most concerns me is 3/4 of the way over on the lower right lines. The TruView looks fine, but that blow up pic looks likes the line might be lost. You see this same trait on some 53-S, not sure if it is strike or dies.
The other aspect is the overall strike. This date comes mushy, and this coin is typical, especially on the reverse. I factor that in when trying to tip the scales on a coin real close on the bell lines. The TPGs used to do that too. Lately however, I don't have barely a clue what they are doing.
I'd say give it some time, and don't give up, grading at the TPGs ebbs and flows and now isn't the right time.
Congrats on a great coin.
I was going to submit this coin about the time the previous thread came about and decided not to because of the pressure put on PCGS.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
<< <i>The area that most concerns me is 3/4 of the way over on the lower right lines. The TruView looks fine, but that blow up pic looks likes the line might be lost. >>
Usual great eye Ronski!
When RT viewed the coin (last month) in it's 1st incarnation (show graded MS64), he also felt it was FBL and commented that there was some "weakness in the lower right quadrant" as well. "But that is not the important area." RT also thought the coin should have been MS65...which it currently is.
I think it is significant that every Franklin specialist that has viewed the coin and/or TrueView agrees that while it is not unquestionably 100% FBL technically, they are as good as most and better than some that have been given the designation.
I wholeheartedly ask that anyone that has a pic of a 53-S with BETTER lines, PLEASE POST IT!
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>"But that is not the important area."
>>
How long ago RT say this? Actually when I first typed in my response I said the same thing, that area is not as important because it isn't a focal point. I erased it because, like I said, I'm not sure what they are looking at anymore.
<< <i>
<< <i>Sorry, Bushmaster, but that one's not even close. Too weak on the left, and lots o' junk to the left side of the crack.
Consider yourself lucky that you got a 65 on it. >>
I'm sorry to have to agree. >>
To state publicly that the coin is "not even close" only go's to show some body's poor attempt at being cynical ......, or far worse;
an admission of the inability to grasp what PCGS considers a FBL 1953-S Franklin to be .
But I think the ego that may well be blind is entitled an opinion , however erroneous .
Tomaska , Sego, Hanor, Lewis ,
are a few of the TOP Franklin men IN THE WORLD - if you contradict the opinions of the experts you only make yourself out to be naive
Russ, NCNE
The previous thread you are referring to :
It may very well be they have copped an attitude of " No more S mint FBL's until hell freezes over " and yes , that "thread" may somewhat be to blame .
but these pix's of recent unholdered coins have bolder bell line's ( for the most part ) then most of the existing examples in holders .........
so I fail to see why in that venue they would be reluctant to FBL these stronger examples........
..........I mean - if they decide a holder-ed coin is FBL , over and over and over ( whether it tis or tisn't ) -their grading guarantee becomes moot
<< <i>John ,
The previous thread you are referring to :
It may very well be they have copped an attitude of " No more S mint FBL's until hell freezes over " and yes , that "thread" may somewhat be to blame .
but these pix's of recent unholdered coins have bolder bell line's ( for the most part ) then most of the existing examples in holders .........
so I fail to see why in that venue they would be reluctant to FBL these stronger examples........
..........I mean - if they decide a holder-ed coin is FBL , over and over and over ( whether it tis or tisn't ) -their grading guarantee becomes moot >>
Thanks Paul and I appreciate what you are saying. But here we are talking about a $25,000.00 plus coin for a grading fee of ???? compared to a $1350.00 coin for a grading fee of not much less. A overwhelming 81.6% of the respondents to the poll in the previous thread voted this was not FBL which is just bad press for PCGS and gets worse as they continue not to down grade it. I fear the Golden Goose is at least in hiding and may never re-appear. Why would PCGS take the chance? I hate to think that all of the Franklin FBL 53-S's that are going to be certified have already been but that would likely be my decision as a business man after all of the fuss in the " previous thread.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
again , I'm with you ............. I i think I catch your drift ;
your implying that one day the courts /legal action could force PCGS to pay fair market value for all those 53-S's already holdered !
<< <i>john ,
again , I'm with you ............. I i think I catch your drift ;
your implying that one day the courts /legal action could force PCGS to pay fair market value for all those 53-S's already holdered ! >>
Paul,
I doubt that could happen but the ones already certified will probably go up in value due to no new ones likely to be made.
I definitely do not want to start a flame war, and am not prepared to fight one, but I am amazed that the same original poster started both threads.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
<< <i>
<< <i>john ,
again , I'm with you ............. I i think I catch your drift ;
your implying that one day the courts /legal action could force PCGS to pay fair market value for all those 53-S's already holdered ! >>
Paul,
I doubt that could happen but the ones already certified will probably go up in value due to no new ones likely to be made.
I definitely do not want to start a flame war, and am not prepared to fight one, but I am amazed that the same original poster started both threads. >>
no war's started here John ....I agree -
but your loosing me know ; If PCGS never has to voluntarily buy back any coin because they simply choose not to
AND , it is unlikely any legal entity would ever make them do so ...........
and they stand to pay out not one penny from their pocket , nor in any way be libel for rendering their opinion; how in the world then would these threads make them reluctant to give a 53-S a FBL designation ?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>john ,
again , I'm with you ............. I i think I catch your drift ;
your implying that one day the courts /legal action could force PCGS to pay fair market value for all those 53-S's already holdered ! >>
Paul,
I doubt that could happen but the ones already certified will probably go up in value due to no new ones likely to be made.
I definitely do not want to start a flame war, and am not prepared to fight one, but I am amazed that the same original poster started both threads. >>
no war's started here John ....I agree -
but your loosing me know ; If PCGS never has to voluntarily buy back any coin because they simply choose not to
AND , it is unlikely any legal entity would ever make them do so ...........
and they stand to pay out not one penny from their pocket , nor in any way be libel for rendering their opinion; how in the world then would these threads make them reluctant to give a 53-S a FBL designation ? >>
You know Paul, that is a really good point
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>john ,
again , I'm with you ............. I i think I catch your drift ;
your implying that one day the courts /legal action could force PCGS to pay fair market value for all those 53-S's already holdered ! >>
Paul,
I doubt that could happen but the ones already certified will probably go up in value due to no new ones likely to be made.
I definitely do not want to start a flame war, and am not prepared to fight one, but I am amazed that the same original poster started both threads. >>
no war's started here John ....I agree -
but your loosing me know ; If PCGS never has to voluntarily buy back any coin because they simply choose not to
AND , it is unlikely any legal entity would ever make them do so ...........
and they stand to pay out not one penny from their pocket , nor in any way be libel for rendering their opinion; how in the world then would these threads make them reluctant to give a 53-S a FBL designation ? >>
Maybe some scribe will note the population of 53-S FBL's today and then we can revisit this a year from now to recheck the population. I can always stand to be corrected.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
in one thread he's pointing out that a coin without full bell line's was in a PCGS FBL holder .
in this thread he's pointing out a coin with full bell line's did not get the FBL designation on the PCGS holder .
He , as well as most of the rest of us - are hoping to bring attention to the fact that the whole FBL thing needs fixing .
That the services need to be consistent and constant and uniform in their definition of a FBL Franklin .
I got a boatload of PCGS FBL Franklins that if I were to break out and get regraded- many would not receive the FBL designation by their standards today .
And apparently if I send them in for review in there current holders - PCGS is reluctant to take away the designation and refund me any money .
A hellova' lot of people like me are sitting on a lot of PCGS FBL coins that are marginal at best ......... and if the prices ever go way high - can you imagine the problems were going to have selling these coins ?
Look what happens when one of the marginal pieces hit the market and hundreds of people exclaim , NO WAY IS THAT THING FBL !!
How do you propose myself and others sell such marginal coins ?? Do you have any advice for us John ? I don't mean to put you on the spot ...........
but really .............what do you think ?
<< <i>"but I am amazed that the same original poster started both threads."
in one thread he's pointing out that a coin without full bell line's was in a PCGS FBL holder .
in this thread he's pointing out a coin with full bell line's did not get the FBL designation on the PCGS holder .
He , as well as most of the rest of us - are hoping to bring attention to the fact that the whole FBL thing needs fixing .
That the services need to be consistent and constant and uniform in their definition of a FBL Franklin .
I got a boatload of PCGS FBL Franklins that if I were to break out and get regraded- many would not receive the FBL designation by their standards today .
And apparently if I send them in for review in there current holders - PCGS is reluctant to take away the designation and refund me any money .
A hellova' lot of people like me are sitting on a lot of PCGS FBL coins that are marginal at best ......... and if the prices ever go way high - can you imagine the problems were going to have selling these coins ?
Look what happens when one of the marginal pieces hit the market and hundreds of people exclaim , NO WAY IS THAT THING FBL !!
How do you propose myself and others sell such marginal coins ?? Do you have any advice for us John ? I don't mean to put you on the spot ...........
but really .............what do you think ? >>
Get a second opinion from PCI, whoops they were run out of business weren't they.
The OP's opinions were just that ...opinions; my guess is that the PCGS $300,000.00 per year senior graders' opinions are more than likely to be the accepted opinions. I am finished on this matter as I do not own a 53-S FBL Franklin and now probably will not ever.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
you had me -then you lost me . With all due respect ,I can not make heads or tails about what it is you were or are trying to say .
so will let things rest ; with you of the opinion that the 300K PCGS senior graders have the final word .
<< <i>john ,
you had me -then you lost me . With all due respect ,I can not make heads or tails about what it is you were or are trying to say .
so will let things rest ; with you of the opinion that the 300K PCGS senior graders have the final word . >>
But they say to get a second opinion when a 300K per year doctor gives you his opinion....
<< <i>Built into PCGS grading software!
If user =bushmaster8 AND coin =1953-S Franklin then NO FBL FOR YOU!!!! >>
one minute the tpgs are great and the next they are not.
either way they have power over you and well, that is the end of that. the current generation of dealers and collectors who are in
their prime simply have to sleep in the bed they have made.
down the road, newer collectors will pick up the pieces and move on.
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
Does that automatically mean that a coin in their holder is a guaranteed FBL at PCGS? Does it mean that there's a 95% chance it makes it into a PCGS FBL holder even if I might change grades???
answer is yes ; nearly every NGC FBL piece ( i'd say your right on the money @ 95 % ) will make FBL @ PCGS ...........BUT ..........to get PCGS to agree with NGC's numerical grade -
well, that's a whole different matter !
<< <i>Hell, I should submit this one for FBL
you could try ; it sure is a clean blazer ........... and maybe they smack it with a FBL and you make a cool 20 -30 k
<< <i>Kryptonite :
answer is yes ; nearly every NGC FBL piece will make FBL @ PCGS ...........BUT ..........to get PCGS to agree with NGC's numerical grade -
well, that's a whole different matter ! >>
That's what I was thinking and that's what I eluded to with the end of my question....
so your's was a bit of a trick question in that you knew the answer already ! You just wanted to make sure everyone knew ehhh ?
you sure got some pretty coins
for FBL designation. Also, no ticks or hits can be on any of the lines. I believe what the grading companies are refering to when they say
the "upper" lines need not be complete, is the lines ABOVE the writting on the bell, toward the top. Those lines are
irrelevant , however ALL the lower lines MUST be full , not just the bottom 2 . At least that is the way I have
always understood it. Am I wrong ?
Greg
<< <i>Shane .......
so your's was a bit of a trick question in that you knew the answer already ! You just wanted to make sure everyone knew ehhh ?
you sure got some pretty coins
I wasn't sure about the FBL since I have never sent any Franklins to PCGS but I thought that would make sense. The grading I did feel confident might change.....although I have looked at a lot of PCGS and NGC coins and agreed with the grading on the vast majority....I know the perception is that PCGS is tougher on the grading and I had no experience with that.....
Pretty coins.....what me??? Give me blast white or give me death
<< <i>Does that automatically mean that a coin in their holder is a guaranteed FBL at PCGS? Does it mean that there's a 95% chance it makes it into a PCGS FBL holder even if I might change grades??? >>
IMHO the percentage of NGC FBL's that would also be FBL at PCGS is high, but not THAT high!
In fact I am seeing more and more NGC FBL Frankies that will not FBL at PCGS. This is partly a function of attempted cross-overs. As more FBL NGC Frankies get crossed to PCGS, those few that don't cross because of bell line deficiencies are "swelling" the population of NGC Franklins that remain in the NGC holder with an undeserved FBL designation.
I would put the percentage at around 85-90%. A good number of NGC FBL coins seem to fade away to the right of the crack, and this precludes the designation at PCGS.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website