Options
Should PCGS slab an obvious counterfeit coin such as...........
PerryHall
Posts: 45,547 ✭✭✭✭✭
......such as the so called New Haven Restrike? This coin was manufactured from privately made new dies which are considerably different from the originals. How are they different from any other counterfeit struck from false dies by a private individual? Does the fact that it's in the Red Book make a difference in your opinion of this coin?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
0
Comments
if it was struck 10 years ago they would poo poo on it.
Just my 2c.
8 Reales Madness Collection
--Severian the Lame
<< <i> Were these made to pass in circulation as an original? If the answer is "yes" then they shouldn't. If "no", then PCGS should be able to slab them as a "restrike". >>
Applying that rule would make contemporary counterfeits eligible to be slabbed and other things such as racketeer nickels, etc.
-Paul
<< <i>Were these made to pass in circulation as an original? If the answer is "yes" then they shouldn't. If "no", then PCGS should be able to slab them as a "restrike".
Just my 2c. >>
Yeah but they were not re struck by the government.
<< <i>Were these made to pass in circulation as an original? If the answer is "yes" then they shouldn't. If "no", then PCGS should be able to slab them as a "restrike".
Just my 2c. >>
No. They were made for collectors like most of the counterfeit coins being made today. Also, a restrike is a coin struck from the original dies which is not the case here.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
The Ford / Newman debate about those "proofs" will be finally put to rest when I get the John Ford letters book printed sometime in the future.
<< <i>Weiss---I have one of those Horseman "restrike" gold coins. They are neat but aren't true restrikes. I also have one of the Kellogg & Co $50 gold restrikes which were at least struck from transfer dies made from the original dies. >>
"This coin was manufactured from privately made new dies which are considerably different from the originals. How are they different from any other counterfeit struck from false dies by a private individual?"
--Severian the Lame
So the OP should direct his question to Whitman Publishing and he should ask if this issue should really be included in the Redbook.
To which Whitman may reply that the coins and tokens listed in the colonial section of the Redbook reflect those which have been collected by colonial specialists for decades (many, many decades).
And while no one would argue that the Fugio 'New Haven Restrike' circulated as money (it didn't), it is widely collected as an association item within the Fugio series, examples of such pieces were in the collections of Ford, Eliasberg, Norweb, Garrett, etc., they are included in the references on the series from Breen, to Kessler to Eric Newman's new book, they are arguably more popular among collectors today then they have ever been, and so I'm not sure what the motivation would be to not slab them.
Unless you are also advocating that the Washington Draped Bust restrikes should also be de-listed? And then any other Washington piece (or other issue) not struck in the year listed? And any other colonial coin which cannot be proven to have circulated in early America? And all those not struck here? And pieces which may have been merely patterns and not circulating issues? And contemporary counterfeits which are merely really old copies? Etc., etc.
So, it is, although included in the main references, graded and slabbed by PCGS. You can wonder why this was the case, as it is an obvious counterfeit coin and PCGS always state they will not grade/certify any coin which is suspicious for being a (modern or not) counterfeit. But why whould PCGS grade these pieces? And why would they be in the Red Book.
Demand is IMHO the key word here. These pieces, somehow have been in demand for a long time. They are related to the actual coinage, and over a certain period of time slowly have been a bit more being accepted as an issue that can be accepted alongside the real stuff. The answer to the question why this happened can probably never be answered correctly, as in case if there ever was an answer, it would most likely be forgotten over a long period of time. It is a decision PCGS made at a later time, sort of a same story with later date California Gold Coins, Hard time Tokens and medals.
Dennis
Like VOC Numismatics on facebook
<< <i>PCGS slabs these because they are listed in the Redbook, and PCGS slabs all Redbook listed colonials.
So the OP should direct his question to Whitman Publishing and he should ask if this issue should really be included in the Redbook.
To which Whitman may reply that the coins and tokens listed in the colonial section of the Redbook reflect those which have been collected by colonial specialists for decades (many, many decades).
And while no one would argue that the Fugio 'New Haven Restrike' circulated as money (it didn't), it is widely collected as an association item within the Fugio series, examples of such pieces were in the collections of Ford, Eliasberg, Norweb, Garrett, etc., they are included in the references on the series from Breen, to Kessler to Eric Newman's new book, they are arguably more popular among collectors today then they have ever been, and so I'm not sure what the motivation would be to not slab them.
Unless you are also advocating that the Washington Draped Bust restrikes should also be de-listed? And then any other Washington piece (or other issue) not struck in the year listed? And any other colonial coin which cannot be proven to have circulated in early America? And all those not struck here? And pieces which may have been merely patterns and not circulating issues? And contemporary counterfeits which are merely really old copies? Etc., etc. >>
Were the Washington pieces restrikes---that is struck from original dies? The so called New Haven Restrikes are not restrikes since they were struck from newly created dies. I'm not taking sides on this issue---just asking a question to help understand the thought process in slabbing these coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I feel I should know this, having spent my entire life in the New Haven area
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i>
<< <i>Weiss---I have one of those Horseman "restrike" gold coins. They are neat but aren't true restrikes. I also have one of the Kellogg & Co $50 gold restrikes which were at least struck from transfer dies made from the original dies. >>
"This coin was manufactured from privately made new dies which are considerably different from the originals. How are they different from any other counterfeit struck from false dies by a private individual?" >>
The Horseman coins were not struck "by a private individual"---they were struck by the Canadian Mint (there's a small maple leaf mark on the coin) for the California Historical Society to raise funds to support the preservation of California historical landmarks.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is a new haven restrike. >>
They are counterfeit US coins made by Scovill Manfacturing Co. in CT for Charles Bushnell. They were struck with privately made dies so they cannot be considered restrikes. These pieces have been discussed several times on these boards, including this Numismatist ethics column. I believe there were attempts to pass them off as the real thing at the time.
<< <i>I feel I should know this, having spent my entire life in the New Haven area
Not necessarily because they have nothing to do with New Haven. That part of the name is counterfeit too
<< <i>Were the Washington pieces restrikes---that is struck from original dies? >>
No.
The history behind them is awesome!
PCGS slabs them as well.
<< <i>As long as proper designations are on the holder, I'm fine with PCGS slabbing such pieces. >>
"New Haven Restrike" is ok but it is misleading. "Scovill Mfg. Co. Counterfeit" is more proper IMO. The Red Book should change its designation as well IMO, at least the primary one - it can be called a Scovill Counterfeit first and a "New Haven Restrike" second.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
<< <i>
<< <i>pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is a new haven restrike. >>
They are counterfeit US coins made by Scovill Manfacturing Co. in CT for Charles Bushnell. They were struck with privately made dies so they cannot be considered restrikes. These pieces have been discussed several times on these boards, including this Numismatist ethics column. I believe there were attempts to pass them off as the real thing at the time.
<< <i>I feel I should know this, having spent my entire life in the New Haven area
Not necessarily because they have nothing to do with New Haven. That part of the name is counterfeit too
Thank you very much for taking the time to explain that to me, I not only feel better, but I learned something also
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.