NEWP 1813 Bust Half.... O-109A, R-5?? Grade and Will It Slab??

bottleguy · February 21, 2008 1:25PM

I just picked this up raw on the 'Bay.... I've tentatively identified it as an O-109A, R-5? I paid about halfway between EF-40 and AU-50 price for it. I'm thinking it might grade at least 50. What do you guys think? And, would it slab? Either way, I'm really liking the looks of this coin and the awesome clashes and die cracks! I can't wait to receive it.....

Thanks!!

Rick

These are the sellers pics....

*edited for stoopid spelling

STONE · February 21, 2008 1:27PM

WOW, that is some very strong mis-matched strike strength on each side of the coin.

I think you paid appropriate money for the coin. I think you are on the AU-50 line. (somewhere between EF-49 and AU-51)

It looks like a nice coin which I think would slab.

Edited for: confirmed the Die variety as O-109a (R5)

stman · February 21, 2008 1:32PM

If you like it great. Since you asked, if the "color" is accurate to what the coin actually looks like....... the "color" looks funky in my worthless opinion.

speety · February 21, 2008 1:33PM

I love this overton die marriage; however, imo your's is not the 109A, it is a plain 109. The 'A' has no trace of the leaf, your's shows almost a complete outline of the leaf. See here for a picture of the 'A'.

Also, this die marriage is almost impossible to grade from pics because of strike issues. I could see this in at least a 50 holder, shot 53/55 depending on luster in hand. I lost out on an example of this marriage not too long ago to another forum member on the bay and have been waiting for another one for a while.

Mark

Dawg144 · February 21, 2008 1:33PM

I hate to burst your bubble with what has a good chance at being an incorrect statement, but FWIW, I think you might have the O-110 R.1. The diagnostic is heavy clashing of "E Pluribus Unum" between the date and the bust, as well as on the cheek and and left obverse field.

Nevertheless, I think it would slab, and I really like the eye-appeal on that one! You did well.

TomB · February 21, 2008 1:34PM

I agree with stman in that the color is very funky and the surfaces look as though they might have been manipulated.

STONE · February 21, 2008 1:39PM

Hang on Speety and Dawg. This is definitely an O-109a. It could be an IDS with the obv die crack, but only w/ a small portion of the leaf visible.
Even on a high grade like this, the leaf would still be visible. I'm still holding this to an O-109a

JRocco · February 21, 2008 1:45PM

This is not the O-109a.
That is not debatable.
I agree that the coin looks "boinked" (thanks stman

)

As for grade...It looks like a technical XF coin.

speety · February 21, 2008 1:45PM

<< Hang on Speety and Dawg. This is definitely an O-109a. It could be an IDS with the obv die crack, but only w/ a small portion of the leaf visible.
Even on a high grade like this, the leaf would still be visible. I'm still holding this to an O-109a >>

Aren't the 0-109a the single leafs? I thought that was the main distinguisher. If there is more than one leaf showing, it's not the 109a? BTW, all O-109's have the obverse die crack, it was apparent on the O-108 before it IIRC.

STONE · February 21, 2008 1:48PM

O-109 (not A) link

Speety, I'm not seeing much of an Obverse die crack on the regular O-109. I know that one of the main things to look for on the LDS O-109a is the
single leaf, but even the "single leaf" still has traces of the second leaf underneath it; atleast that's what I can see.

bottleguy · February 21, 2008 1:51PM

<< I'm still holding this to an O-109a >>

So am I!

The obverse matches the O-109A and so does the reverse. The only other variety to use this obverse die is the O-108, the reverse of which doesn't match this coin at all.

Rick

speety · February 21, 2008 1:51PM

<< O-109 (not A) link

Speety, I'm not seeing much of an Obverse die crack on the regular O-109. I know that one of the main things to look for on the LDS O-109a is the
single leaf, but even the "single leaf" still has traces of the second leaf underneath it; atleast that's what I can see. >>

Stone, as quoted from Ed (who probably knows 50x as much as me when it comes to these,
"All of the O-109 obverses show the die cracks that were also present on the O-108. Little milling or none at all. Numerous die clashes appear. The crossbars on the shield are clashed onto the portrait, letters on the motto appear above the date, in my example shown feathers on the right wing are clashed in front of the portrait's face, etc."

JRocco · February 21, 2008 1:53PM

<< 

<< I'm still holding this to an O-109a >>

So am I!

The obverse matches the O-109A and so does the reverse. The only other variety to use this obverse die is the O-108, the reverse of which doesn't match this coin at all.

Rick >>

Is there a reason you are not considering the O-109 instead of the O-109a?

STONE · February 21, 2008 1:56PM

Ok Speety. I'm out numbered on this. That leaf is getting VERY close to disappearing and the strength of the Obv die crack, to me, is stronger than any for the O-109 and O-108's. I also agree that Ed knows a ga-gillion times more than me on CBH's.

If it makes all the other CBH-ers on here happy, I'll concede to the O-109 (not A). I still say it's close enough

Edited to add: I now want to bring into motion this O-109a which still shows a shadow of the outline of the leaf on this coin. This too would make it an O-109 on a technical basis!!!

speety · February 21, 2008 1:59PM

<< Ok Speety. I'm out numbered on this. That leaf is getting VERY close to disappearing and the strength of the Obv die crack, to me, is stronger than any for the O-109 and O-108's. I also agree that Ed knows a ga-gillion times more than me on CBH's.

If it makes all the other CBH-ers on here happy, I'll concede to the O-109 (not A). I still say it's close enough

>>

The crack does look stronger, however, the entire strike of the coin looks stronger than the typical O-109, perhaps the strong die crack is just from a stronger strike? And the detail shown in the field shows where the lense was focused to while the picture was taken, most pics on CoinZip are scans which usually lack or mute vertical details, such as a die crack.

Edited for stones edit

The 1813 single leaf is a much disputed coin, personally i don't think they really exist. I think it has more to do with a weak strike than an actual single leaf. About half the 'experts' believe the 1813 single leaf exists while half don't. I remember a debate on this forum between mozin and ed on this topic. I think Mozin eventually won ed over and the 'faint outline' of the leaf in Mozins picture is an artifact of the photo or something along those lines. Sadly, i cannot find this thread in a quick search.

I also believe that in Capped Bust Fever 2 there is a good article on this die marriage.

JRocco · February 21, 2008 2:01PM

Dawg144 · February 21, 2008 2:13PM

I have an outdated Overton that doesn't even have O-109a, and everything I know about bust halves comes out of it. So I'll shut up now and defer to the experts.

I'm interested in seeing how this is resolved.

speety · February 21, 2008 2:16PM

Jrocco, that is a gorgeous coin and is the latest die state i've seen based on the shield lines clashed through the ear. However, i still think i see traces of the leaf, albeit light. I guess i just have to see one in person to really believe they exist. Too many things can be artifacts of the lighting and pictures...

DenverDave · February 21, 2008 11:30PM

Great looking Bust, I'm in the XF, O-109 camp...

Probably would be an "A" if the strike was not so nice...

That said, I do not think it would slab...

Looks like the dreaded "altered Surfaces" to me but might just be the photo...

PS, I kept you honest as I was the under bidder..."-)

JRocco · February 22, 2008 12:12AM

<< Jrocco, that is a gorgeous coin and is the latest die state i've seen based on the shield lines clashed through the ear. However, i still think i see traces of the leaf, albeit light. I guess i just have to see one in person to really believe they exist. Too many things can be artifacts of the lighting and pictures... >>

Thanks speety.
I have to agree that the case still has to be made whether the "a" or single leaf exists. The coin in the OP is not a contender for this argument as it is CLEARLY not the single leaf. As for my coin- I would not call my coin the single leaf or "a" either.

The coin in the OP is a nice coin, but I personally believe that it has been played with and then played with again.
That is a shame. But it is still a nice 1813 and it still has a place in many collections as long as its price is reflected accordingly.

I would take a nice 1797 half dollar that was bent and has altered surfaces if the price was right

jdillane · February 22, 2008 12:31AM

Though it may well have been played with, let's wait to hear from bottleguy once he gets an in hand inspection.

I think she's got AU details all day long.

Hopefully an in hand inspection supports nothing more than a dip and retone. that coin saw very little circulation. We all know that color is tricky to replicate with images. And, Best Crystal's coins images all seem to have similarity in color. The seller has been known to disclose a problem or two on his listed coins so that bodes well for Bottleguy. Final hammer leads me to think you will be very happy.

I would have bid on it myself, but Best Crystal blocked me last year cuz I asked too many questions about a coin he had listed. I basically tried to rule out any problems with the coin before I decided how much to bid and he thought I was laying groundwork to start problems?!?!?! Well, he has lost quite a bit by not having me compete on his CBH's.

C'est la vie!

speety · February 22, 2008 12:39AM

<< I would have bid on it myself, but Best Crystal blocked me last year cuz I asked too many questions about a coin he had listed. I basically tried to rule out any problems with the coin before I decided how much to bid and he thought I was laying groundwork to start problems?!?!?! Well, he has lost quite a bit by not having me compete on his CBH's.

<< 

You already took one of this die marriage from my clasps, why do you need another?

jdillane · February 22, 2008 3:56AM

I have a hoarder's mentality. This would have been an upgrade vs the one I got on the bay recently.

But you're right.....I should be focusing on the gaps moreso than the upgrades!

NEWP 1813 Bust Half.... O-109A, R-5?? Grade and Will It Slab??

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