sorting cents from change ** HUGE volunteer project ** apply within
coppercoins
Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭
A study I started years ago fell by the way side as other priorities jumped in the way - but now I am wanting to get it started again, and I need help from the public.
The premise to the project is to find out what 1c coins we have circulating in our economy. The idea is that since we have about 30 billion cents in change out there, if we took a small cross section of that and broke it down into dates and mints, then used a formula to remultiply the number up to a total of 30 billion, we could assume this is something close to the number that's left from original mintage. Here's how it works...
We need 3 million cents sorted and reported, but it needs to be from all around the country because mint districts dictate what you have in your change. If we get a count from WA, FL, CA, and ME and all points in between, we will get a close idea of what's all over the country, not just what's in CA.
3 million, you say...that's a LOT of coins! Well, if I had 600 people involved, each person would sort and report on a single bag of cents - or two bank boxes worth...$50 face. That would take a weekend, at most, and you wouldn't need to keep the coins - you could simply take them back to the bank when you're done.
Naturally, I cannot 'pay' people to participate, this would be a voluntary thing...but the results would be something that's never been done on a scale like this, and it would help everyone as a community...and it could actually bring you coins that could make a profit for you. Additionally, you will be listed as a contributor anywhere the results are published. That puts your name in the marquee lights, and helps us all out at the same time.
Now...there are a couple of requirements beyond what you might expect, so PAY ATTENTION CLOSELY HERE!
You must know and sort the difference between the 1960, 1970, 1974, and 1982 large and small date coins, and you must also be able to separate the metals in 1982. I can help anyone with any of this, and will be publishing information on the web for participants to read. If you DO NOT sort the coins out completely, I CANNOT USE YOUR RESULTS. Simple as that. In order for any of this to work, everyone has to be on the same page.
I know I will get help from around 200 people already from other sources. If everyone in CCF helps out, that will bring us much closer. I'm sure I can get the remainder by duplicating effort in lower populated areas or something...those details will come out in the wash.
The results....wouldn't you like to know how many 1982D small date zinc cents were minted? The results of this test could help determine a close number. It could also point out modern pocket change rarities in Lincoln cents. It is entirely possible that (hypothetical here) 1988P cents are MUCH scarcer than all surrounding dates. Could be a reason for that, but we don't know it now. All we have to go by now are the mintages, which are rather consistent. What would it look like if 1,600 1987 cents were found, 2,300 1989 cents were found, but only 250 1988 cents were found? That shows us a shortcoming in that date that we didn't know about before this count. Of course I'm only using 1988 because even I don't know what's really scarce, and I had to pick a date. It's also entirely possible that none of the dates are scarce at all. NOBODY knows...UNTIL we do something about it, and this is how.
So...if you're into sorting change, and would like to sort a couple of boxes of circulated cents for this study, sound off here, and I will continue with further information. If I don't get much interest in responses, I'll just can the idea.
Now...again...PLEASE DO NOT START until you get instructions on exactly how to do it. I will publish the information you need to know if in fact we end up doing this, and you can start after you read the information. If you ASSUME what I need to know and just jump out there and do it, I can promise you that you have a less than 10% chance I can actually use your effort toward anything. That's why it's important that you follow my lead on this.
So who's in? Where you from? You know someone else who would do it? Let me know. Remember, I want as much coverage of the nation as possible. Any Hawaiians? Alaskans? That would be even better! More the better, but I cannot have too many from a single area doing this...which is why some might be rejected toward the end. I will have to get equal representation from around the country.
------------------------------ FOR THOSE INTERESTED ---------------------------------
Please send an email to me (cd@coppercoins.com) indicating your interest in helping. Please use the following as the subject of the message...
cent count - (your location)
Mine would read, "cent count - SW Missouri"
Please use an area of a state, not the name of the town you live in, unless it's a huge city everyone would know.
The premise to the project is to find out what 1c coins we have circulating in our economy. The idea is that since we have about 30 billion cents in change out there, if we took a small cross section of that and broke it down into dates and mints, then used a formula to remultiply the number up to a total of 30 billion, we could assume this is something close to the number that's left from original mintage. Here's how it works...
We need 3 million cents sorted and reported, but it needs to be from all around the country because mint districts dictate what you have in your change. If we get a count from WA, FL, CA, and ME and all points in between, we will get a close idea of what's all over the country, not just what's in CA.
3 million, you say...that's a LOT of coins! Well, if I had 600 people involved, each person would sort and report on a single bag of cents - or two bank boxes worth...$50 face. That would take a weekend, at most, and you wouldn't need to keep the coins - you could simply take them back to the bank when you're done.
Naturally, I cannot 'pay' people to participate, this would be a voluntary thing...but the results would be something that's never been done on a scale like this, and it would help everyone as a community...and it could actually bring you coins that could make a profit for you. Additionally, you will be listed as a contributor anywhere the results are published. That puts your name in the marquee lights, and helps us all out at the same time.
Now...there are a couple of requirements beyond what you might expect, so PAY ATTENTION CLOSELY HERE!
You must know and sort the difference between the 1960, 1970, 1974, and 1982 large and small date coins, and you must also be able to separate the metals in 1982. I can help anyone with any of this, and will be publishing information on the web for participants to read. If you DO NOT sort the coins out completely, I CANNOT USE YOUR RESULTS. Simple as that. In order for any of this to work, everyone has to be on the same page.
I know I will get help from around 200 people already from other sources. If everyone in CCF helps out, that will bring us much closer. I'm sure I can get the remainder by duplicating effort in lower populated areas or something...those details will come out in the wash.
The results....wouldn't you like to know how many 1982D small date zinc cents were minted? The results of this test could help determine a close number. It could also point out modern pocket change rarities in Lincoln cents. It is entirely possible that (hypothetical here) 1988P cents are MUCH scarcer than all surrounding dates. Could be a reason for that, but we don't know it now. All we have to go by now are the mintages, which are rather consistent. What would it look like if 1,600 1987 cents were found, 2,300 1989 cents were found, but only 250 1988 cents were found? That shows us a shortcoming in that date that we didn't know about before this count. Of course I'm only using 1988 because even I don't know what's really scarce, and I had to pick a date. It's also entirely possible that none of the dates are scarce at all. NOBODY knows...UNTIL we do something about it, and this is how.
So...if you're into sorting change, and would like to sort a couple of boxes of circulated cents for this study, sound off here, and I will continue with further information. If I don't get much interest in responses, I'll just can the idea.
Now...again...PLEASE DO NOT START until you get instructions on exactly how to do it. I will publish the information you need to know if in fact we end up doing this, and you can start after you read the information. If you ASSUME what I need to know and just jump out there and do it, I can promise you that you have a less than 10% chance I can actually use your effort toward anything. That's why it's important that you follow my lead on this.
So who's in? Where you from? You know someone else who would do it? Let me know. Remember, I want as much coverage of the nation as possible. Any Hawaiians? Alaskans? That would be even better! More the better, but I cannot have too many from a single area doing this...which is why some might be rejected toward the end. I will have to get equal representation from around the country.
------------------------------ FOR THOSE INTERESTED ---------------------------------
Please send an email to me (cd@coppercoins.com) indicating your interest in helping. Please use the following as the subject of the message...
cent count - (your location)
Mine would read, "cent count - SW Missouri"
Please use an area of a state, not the name of the town you live in, unless it's a huge city everyone would know.
C. D. Daughtrey, NLG
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
0
Comments
FYI, no offense intended it just seems to be a very cumbersome project that will result in very inaccurate data due to many outside circumstances.
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
interesting post none the less.
My time is at a premium so I doubt I'll participate but I wanted to express my support of the project.
BTW: I'm now in central California.
SW Florida... with reference material provided, I'd be more than willing to participate. (I was doing this with Roosevelt dimes for a while, earlier in the year)
Jeff
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
<< <i>Some people have waaaay too much time on their hands. BTW, I suggest you apply for a federal grant. The US government or an educational foundation should pay for a study like this.
FYI, no offense intended it just seems to be a very cumbersome project that will result in very inaccurate data due to many outside circumstances. >>
No. There is absolutely no reason that the data should be flawed in any way. Some steps
will need to be taken to assure that there isn't contamination of results but these are just
common sense precautions like omitting samples that have no later dates or samples that
are BU rolls.
The results will probably be much as expected but the variety results, at least, are important
information that future collectors (and many present collectors) will deem critical information.
This is about the last chance for such a project since this denomination is likely drawing to a
close as a circulating issue.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
The 1982 cents of which there are 7 varieties.
From Indiana and Michigan over a 25 year period.
Quanities are in lowest common denominators.
1982 P cents
Large Date Copper--------38
Large Date Zink-------------10
Small Date Copper--------6
Small Date Zink-------------5
1982 D Cents
Large Date Copper--------311
Small Date Zink-------------7
Large Date Zink-------------6
A nation wide census is needed for better accuracy. .
The 82 cents are seldom found in change today.
Copper cents are down to about 20 percent of all
cents in circulation, leading one to believe them to
be the most hoarded of all coins.
What kind of time line are you looking at for completion of this project?
Also,
Even though I can not participate, is there a chance I can see your guidelines?
The best of luck,
Ray
<< <i>Some people have waaaay too much time on their hands. BTW, I suggest you apply for a federal grant. The US government or an educational foundation should pay for a study like this.
FYI, no offense intended it just seems to be a very cumbersome project that will result in very inaccurate data due to many outside circumstances. >>
Actually, the U.S. government might just give out a grant for this. What the heck, someone got $40K for researching why people get hurt on bikes.
The conclusion was that people get hurt when they fall off.
Jerry
What do I mean by that?? Well, if you live in Akron, Ohio and I don't have any volunteers from Eastern Ohio or Western PA then your area would be important to count in, so I'd like to get your coins and go through them here. I figure if I paid each non-participant willing to ship the coins $60, then that should cover the boxes and shipping.
To all: Timeline...I would like to have this done and completed by the end of the year. I personally am going to take a road trip and cover the following myself: Enid, OK; Tulsa, OK; Wichita, KS; Rolla, MO; Jonesboro, AR; Fayetteville, AR, Joplin, MO; Springfield, MO. I also currently have around 50 volunteers from all around the country who have replied to my requests within the past 16 hours. I figure that number could double in the next month, but even that still isn't enough.
I might also request that some volunteers count two batches from their areas if that area is under-represented and they have time. I intend on taking this by population by state, something like delegates in the electoral college. There are 538 spots in the electoral college, and I need 600 spots covered, a difference of 62. If I add in the percentage difference to each state, I would come close to the number I need from each state. Going by the electoral college alone, I would need 55 people from CA; 9 from CO; 11 from my home state of MO...plus the percentage already mentioned. My problem is going to be coming up with 4 from HI and 3 from AK. Of course Guam, Puerto Rico, USVI, and anyplace else that uses US currency would be welcome to participate.
Regarding government grants...I have my fiance going through that process. She'll let me know if it's possible and will take care of the application, etc.
Regarding whether this information will be shared - of course! That's the whole point. I will be entering the results into a database and publishing it on my site. I will also use the data for other publications and invite others to use it with credit to me. This, as far as I see it, is a public study. The only thing that's mine alone is the idea.
As for the accuracy of the data - Well, no data can be completely accurate unless your control includes the entire population of 30 billion items...but that's impossible. So, we do the next best thing and assume a few things, knock our sample down and use math to come up with the results. I see no reason who it wouldn't "work".
Regarding knocking out samples because they don't meet the average - I beliee this is the wrong way to go about it. With a group 600 strong, we're likely to run into rolls of solid date coins, rolls of wheats, and even a few indians here and there. I will be including them all in the study simply because everyone will be instructed to go to the bank and ask for two $25 boxes of cents...nothing special. What they are given will represent what would have gone into circulation in their area that day, so that's what should be counted. If it's $50 in wheat cents, so be it. I will request that nobody get the "jug" out of their closet, or count a bag of coins that have been sitting in their shop for two years. The test sample MUST come from CURRENT circulation.
Thanks for the messages so far, and yes...I am crazy (for those who wonder). I really want to see the results and know what we have out there, and this is really the only way to do it.
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
When you have it all figured out, let me know when, how, etc.
BTW, how do you determine if an 82 cent is all copper or just clad? The only time I can tell is if the plating is starting to peal from an improperly cleaned zinc planchet. Otherwise I have no clue.
<< <i>how do you determine if an 82 cent is all copper or just clad?q]
A small digital scale is needed.
Copper---------3 grams
Zink-------------2.5 grams
<< <i>
<< <i>how do you determine if an 82 cent is all copper or just clad?q]
A small digital scale is needed.
Copper---------3 grams
Zink-------------2.5 grams >>
Then will every volunteer need a digital scale?
The entertainment can never be overdressed....except in burlesque
<< <i>Then will every volunteer need a digital scale? >>
Yes--or a balance scale made from an 8 x 11 sheet of paper.
A sharp file will work but thats over the top.
I will also publish complete photographic instructions on how to tell without a doubt the difference between 1960, 1970, 1974, and 1982 large and small date cents. They are all rather simple to learn and know. The toughest one is 1974, and there are tricks you can use to tell them apart...that plus I might just send one of each to every participant so they will have definite examples in hand.
Regarding the grant from the government - I emailed the grant office today and told them what I want to do. I am awaiting a reply from them.
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
<< <i>If you are successful in obtaining a grant for your proposed project and word gets out, I can see lots of other coin collectors with a passion for a particular segment of US Coinage (i.e. 1950-1970 Cameos) applying for grants to finance their own projects
Passion.
Good to see it.
The entertainment can never be overdressed....except in burlesque
I also emailed the editors or writers of all the major clubs and magazines with the information about the project to see if any of them step forward to help get the word out about the project.
the Cent Project
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>how do you determine if an 82 cent is all copper or just clad?q]
A small digital scale is needed.
Copper---------3 grams
Zink-------------2.5 grams >>
Then will every volunteer need a digital scale? >>
No.. you can tell the zinc from the copper by the soud they make by striking a hard surface (like the floor). The zinc cents sound dull, while the copper cents have a sharp high pitched sound. After doing it for a while, it will become very easy to tell the zinc from copper.
<< <i>
<< <i>Some people have waaaay too much time on their hands. BTW, I suggest you apply for a federal grant. The US government or an educational foundation should pay for a study like this.
FYI, no offense intended it just seems to be a very cumbersome project that will result in very inaccurate data due to many outside circumstances. >>
No. There is absolutely no reason that the data should be flawed in any way. >>
The data won't be flawed in any way? You're joking right?
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
<< <i>I'm serious about checking into a U.S. Government grant for this project. >>
As you should be! This project is as productive as most federal grant projects if not more.
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
It's a project that's like none attempted before, and will provide data that has a chance of giving us insight to what we assumed before, and insight into things we never could have known otherwise.
You have any idea just how many of the first five years of zinc cents are completely gone now, never to be seen again? Is it 25%? Maybe 95%? We cannot even come close without a study like this.
Any idea how many of the 10.7 billion 1982 Philly cents made are each of the four types made by that mint? Yeah...neither do I. But these numbers should help us round that down some. It would be a matter of supposition in grand scale, but you got any ideas on how to come closer to the truth? I didn't think so.
Basically, what I'm saying here is that there's no way this will give us exact numbers, nor will it give us accurate percentages of what's left out there to within a hundredth. It's not even likely to show us any given issue is scarce to the point its values should be changed...but it might.
Oxy8890 - You seem to be taking the opposition on this whole thing, sort of poo-pooing the idea as way too flawed to be of any use, and I don't understand. I never said anything about this being an exact science where every mystery would be solved. It's going to have its shortcomings, that much is a given - I don't need that pointed out to me.
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
I’ll email the requested details.
<< <i>I wouldn't say there's no reason why the data should be flawed. It's naturally flawed because we aren't taking every cent out of circulation and checking them all. It's naturally flawed because even optimistically (and very so) we won't even be able to cover a full 1/10,000 of all circulating cents...BUT...
It's a project that's like none attempted before, and will provide data that has a chance of giving us insight to what we assumed before, and insight into things we never could have known otherwise.
You have any idea just how many of the first five years of zinc cents are completely gone now, never to be seen again? Is it 25%? Maybe 95%? We cannot even come close without a study like this.
Any idea how many of the 10.7 billion 1982 Philly cents made are each of the four types made by that mint? Yeah...neither do I. But these numbers should help us round that down some. It would be a matter of supposition in grand scale, but you got any ideas on how to come closer to the truth? I didn't think so.
Basically, what I'm saying here is that there's no way this will give us exact numbers, nor will it give us accurate percentages of what's left out there to within a hundredth. It's not even likely to show us any given issue is scarce to the point its values should be changed...but it might.
Oxy8890 - You seem to be taking the opposition on this whole thing, sort of poo-pooing the idea as way too flawed to be of any use, and I don't understand. I never said anything about this being an exact science where every mystery would be solved. It's going to have its shortcomings, that much is a given - I don't need that pointed out to me. >>
C.D.
I respect what you're attempting to do. I am just questioning the overall value of information being provided given the man hours involved (JMO). Again I am not saying there isn't some value I am just questioning how much value given the amount of energy/time expended. From what I am able to tell, you seem to be running a coin business and I just can't imagine why anyone would want to undertake such a large project with such a low financial reward/return. Again, (JMO).
Unless you are planning to use this survey for an undisclosed purpose.
In addition C.D., I am no way insinuating that you believe this is a perfect survey. CladKing is the one who I quoted as saying "the data won't be flawed in any way". He is the individual I took issue with on the above post.
I actually hope that Cladking reads your post. Maybe he will understand that you and I might have some different thoughts on the value of such an undertaking but at least we are in agreement that the data collected will not be a perfect.
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
I'd be happy to volunteer if needed. I poke through 'em on a regular basis anyway.
and I don't want to say ANYTHING to discourage it. I believe the data will be of tre-
mendous value to current and future collectors. It will even have value to future his-
torians, anthropologists, and others who have need of such esoteric knowledge. The
information will even have some limited value to government and the mint.
I am disturbed by the methodology. I understand CopperCoin's wanting to keep it
simple by not excluding contaminated samples but my experience is that without the
raw data these contaminations can have an impact on interpretations. Research Tri-
angle did a study in '76 that concluded quarters lasted 30 years for instance. I think
the error was caused by the natural overweighting of recently minted coins in circula-
tion. This may have been exascerbated by the recent emptying of old stockpiles from
the FED which ended about that same time.
One of the best things about this project is the attempt to get samples from across
the country. This is where some of the previous studies have fallen flat and it's espec-
ially important with one cent coins because they don't "travel" to the degree other de-
nominations do. It's also great that the varieties will be looked at.
There are going to be some surprises with this study. CopperCoins already hinted at
one but there will be at least a couple of others and probably some that catch us all off
guard.
...And there would be even more surprises if you look at the condition and grade of
each date. I'd encourage all participants, after they've got their counts and data, to
go back through the coins and look at the conditions before returning them to the bank.
What comes of that data is multi-fold. We could learn of modern rarities. We could find rarities we didn't know existed. We could find that certain dates/eras held up far better than others. We could find that copper cents are leaving circulation far faster than we expected, if we do this again in a couple more years, then every couple years until the cent is gone.
We could be collecting data that would be much more useful 50 years from now than it could possibly be now.
The point is to get the data collected before the coins are gone, or before the "general" circulation of such coins is further contaminated by people hoarding what they believe could or will have value...which is the whole reason most of our wheat cents from the 1940s and 1950s are no longer in circulation - they are different, and people save what's different. They really aren't any less available than 1959 cents, but they are less available in circulation.
Lots of reasons, some I didn't mention here, to do this now.
Oxy 8890 - As for my being a coin dealer - I'm not. Simple as that. I make a very meager income, and live in a modest house I can barely afford. I don't make money, simple as that. I put a couple thousand extra cents on the web for sale. If they sell, fine. If they don't, fine. I don't count on any of the income from them because I couldn't if I needed to. My coin sales are far less than $500 on any given month, and often less than $100 a month.
No, I am not a dealer. I am a passionate collector turned researcher and specialist. I write about coins, I draw subjects relating to coins, I search through coins, yet I rarely sell them. A dozen collectors begging me to release some of my hoard could attest to that. The money in the business isn't as important to me as the hobby, education in the hobby, and the history.
I have no trump cards I haven't laid out. I want to see the results just as much as I'm sure anyone else wants to. I doubt there's a collector out there who has anything to do with Lincoln cents who wouldn't at least glance at the results with some level of interest. In order to see these results, someone has to pour themselves out and volunteer to spearhead a project like this, and a large number of other people have to be willing to partake of a couple of hours of their time to help. Most who have replied to me have mentioned kids and family time...this alone makes me happy enough to want to continue, even if all else fails.
So no...there is no ulterior motive. I have openly stated that anyone can use the data and results without royalty to me. I don't expect to get paid now or never for this. I just want to see what happens with the numbers, simple as that. You know....some of us really ARE passionate about what we do.
Cladking - I would consider removing results that skewed too far off the 'norm' to be useful, but what's too far off the 'norm'? If a person runs into a sealed 1968S bag, well that's obviously off the norm. This actually happened back in 1999 when I had some friends try doing this project. If someone ran into a box full of wheats, I guess that would be far enough off the norm. But with the size of data I am hoping for, many of these oddities would be eaten up by the norm. I would openly welcome any suggestions you have to keep the data clean.
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
<< <i>How many would you need from Wyoming?
I'd be happy to volunteer if needed. I poke through 'em on a regular basis anyway. >>
Looking at the list coppercoins has published you'd be the first of two participants needed in Wyoming.
The entertainment can never be overdressed....except in burlesque
<< <i>How many would you need from Wyoming?
I'd be happy to volunteer if needed. I poke through 'em on a regular basis anyway. >>
Shoot me an email. I need at least three from Wyoming, and have none currently. I also have none for Idaho, Montana, Nebraska, or South Dakota...so if you live close enough to any of those states and could acquire a group from there, more power to ya!
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
<< <i> I would openly welcome any suggestions you have to keep the data clean. >>
Perhaps one of the biggest ones is to just exclude the current year.
What I usually do is exclude ALL uncs less than four years old but this
would be unwieldy in a study of this scope.
Of course, all these considerations become less important if the raw data
is available.
I live in S.E. Ohio and have the time. Send me the details and I will be glad to help.
Gary
Email is beartracks42@roadrunner.com
<< <i>
<< <i>Some people have waaaay too much time on their hands. BTW, I suggest you apply for a federal grant. The US government or an educational foundation should pay for a study like this.
FYI, no offense intended it just seems to be a very cumbersome project that will result in very inaccurate data due to many outside circumstances. >>
Actually, the U.S. government might just give out a grant for this. What the heck, someone got $40K for researching why people get hurt on bikes.
The conclusion was that people get hurt when they fall off.
Jerry >>
LMAO
<< <i>My attempt here is more at collecting data on the most minted coin in world history before it goes *poof*
What comes of that data is multi-fold. We could learn of modern rarities. We could find rarities we didn't know existed. We could find that certain dates/eras held up far better than others. We could find that copper cents are leaving circulation far faster than we expected, if we do this again in a couple more years, then every couple years until the cent is gone.
We could be collecting data that would be much more useful 50 years from now than it could possibly be now.
The point is to get the data collected before the coins are gone, or before the "general" circulation of such coins is further contaminated by people hoarding what they believe could or will have value...which is the whole reason most of our wheat cents from the 1940s and 1950s are no longer in circulation - they are different, and people save what's different. They really aren't any less available than 1959 cents, but they are less available in circulation.
Lots of reasons, some I didn't mention here, to do this now.
Oxy 8890 - As for my being a coin dealer - I'm not. Simple as that. I make a very meager income, and live in a modest house I can barely afford. I don't make money, simple as that. I put a couple thousand extra cents on the web for sale. If they sell, fine. If they don't, fine. I don't count on any of the income from them because I couldn't if I needed to. My coin sales are far less than $500 on any given month, and often less than $100 a month.
No, I am not a dealer. I am a passionate collector turned researcher and specialist. I write about coins, I draw subjects relating to coins, I search through coins, yet I rarely sell them. A dozen collectors begging me to release some of my hoard could attest to that. The money in the business isn't as important to me as the hobby, education in the hobby, and the history.
I have no trump cards I haven't laid out. I want to see the results just as much as I'm sure anyone else wants to. I doubt there's a collector out there who has anything to do with Lincoln cents who wouldn't at least glance at the results with some level of interest. In order to see these results, someone has to pour themselves out and volunteer to spearhead a project like this, and a large number of other people have to be willing to partake of a couple of hours of their time to help. Most who have replied to me have mentioned kids and family time...this alone makes me happy enough to want to continue, even if all else fails.
So no...there is no ulterior motive. I have openly stated that anyone can use the data and results without royalty to me. I don't expect to get paid now or never for this. I just want to see what happens with the numbers, simple as that. You know....some of us really ARE passionate about what we do.
Cladking - I would consider removing results that skewed too far off the 'norm' to be useful, but what's too far off the 'norm'? If a person runs into a sealed 1968S bag, well that's obviously off the norm. This actually happened back in 1999 when I had some friends try doing this project. If someone ran into a box full of wheats, I guess that would be far enough off the norm. But with the size of data I am hoping for, many of these oddities would be eaten up by the norm. I would openly welcome any suggestions you have to keep the data clean. >>
CD,
Thank you for your reply. It is nice to see this level of passion in the hobby. I hope this undertaking is successful for you.
As for the dealer question I actually respectfully but very adamantly disagree with you. A dealer is someone who sells coins on a consistent basis.
I have a regular job and sell a few coins online (my website, ebay) as well. My annual coin volume is very similar to yours (maybe a little less). But this definitely makes me a coin dealer. Not a big one and maybe not the best one but a dealer nonetheless.
Laura might disagree with this statement, but the IRS wouldn’t. We might be “wannabes” but we are still dealers. My guess is you and I will have to agree to disagree on this point.
Again, good luck on your project,
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
Now that's a project. Good luck!
The response I made above was in reference to what appeared to be accusatory undertones that if I was a dealer and had something to financially gain from this, why was I not paying people to do the sorting? The answer is simple. I have nothing financial to gain from this, and I don't sell enough coins to buy gas with the profit, much less pay anyone to help me with anything. My profit on a $100 sale is usually around $15...that's roughly my monthly income from coin sales in profit, and a tank of gas for my car costs $60.
Coin sales are a very small part of my business. Much more of my income comes from art work and photography - two things that have nothing to do with my passion for the study of the Lincoln cent and the subsequent reason for conducting this experiment. And even at that, the income I make from the art and photography are still barely enough to pay meager bills. My annual AGI is around $20K, and I have three kids to feed.
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
It is apparent that our philosophies and thought processes are very different. I will simply agree to disagree.
I mean this in the nicest way as well, we simply approach things differently.
Good Luck to You
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."