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Does the 1807 O-111 prime bust half dollar really exist
BiddlesBank
Posts: 721 ✭
I cherried this 1807 O-111 at the recent Long Beach Coin Expo. PCGS certified it VF20 at the show for a modest fee of $205 in 3 hours time. I showed this to a few bust half experts and only Sheridan Downey could make out the evidence of a crack. I admit I can see a very faint crack under the chin if held at a sharp angle under a bright light and by using a 10X loop. But under my 20X microscope it is not evident at all. Otherwise you have to catch it as a fleeting image if looking exactly in the right spot.
This causes me to question whether or not the 4 known examples of the prime would pass the same scrutiny???????
So my question is does the O-111 prime really exist??
Steve Herrman's AMBPR only lists 4 known examples. Herrman goes on to state that without any die cracks it is probably R7+. The last sold was by Stacks in the Crimson sale 03/06 lot 2608. The photos for that lot are not clear enough to make a determination. So we have to go on the word of the cataloger for that sale.
When I emailed S Herrman with some of the same questions he stated: "Proper attribution of die states for 1807 O.111 has always been subject to question and debate"
In an earlier thread found on CU there is a nice photo of an O-111 that Sheridan Downey inspected and wrote about. Note that Downey admits there is a "spider thin die break between stars 3 and 4." So by the criteria of no die cracks at all it barely fails that exacting standard.
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At the same time I also owned a 111a AU full prooflike where the beard was spider web thin (a coin I bought from Sheridan) as well as a full bearded 111b which made it easy to compare the different die states. If Sheridan noticed a trace of a crack them most likely it would be considered an early 111a die state, he has probably seen more of them then anybody so he knows exactly what to look for when it comes to these.
On the early "A" die states most likely the crack has not progressed completely from the chin to chest but the start of the crack is visible either at the bottom of the chin or top of the chest. When you look at later die states the crack is quite heavy (small lump) at the spot where it touches the chin and chest so looking at those two contact points is where you are most likely to see the start of the crack. Any trace of the crack in those two areas would likely put the coin into the 111a die state.
For discussion sake, my O-111 has the same "spider thin die break between stars 3 and 4," as Sheridan described for your coin. Now by strict standards neither coin qualifies as Prime, as per Overton.
So who has the authority to change the standard set by Overton and further detailed by Herrman that the Prime has "NO" die cracks?
As it stands there are 4 recorded O-111's without any die breaks. But we found out on this thread that at least one of those has a very light die break between stars 3 and 4.
This narrows it down to 3 known that "MAY NOT" have any kind of die break at all.
So the question remains. Does the 1807 O-111 prime really exist without any die breaks of any kind?
Or should the criteria be officially changed to allow for the die break around stars 3 and 4? If the later is the case it is too bad this was not included in Parsley's 4th edition of Overtons since apparently some have believed this was the criteria since as early as 1987.
As you can see the prime die state becomes problematic. Should we allow for a slightly longer die break stars 2 through 5 or just 3 through 4, and ect. Since we are dealing with a rarity that brings in excess of $10,000 for a circulated prime designation it is worth the clarification.
I will be watching the ebay listing to see what the bidders feel is the worth of the coin, that is, IF the opening price and/or reserve is not out in space somewhere.
As to whether or not a true 111 exists, with no trace of any obverse cracks, it may be necessary to examine the specimen in the ORC, not a possibility at this time, or wait until Charlton Meyer's coins are sold, which may not be until the hereafter. It is important to remember that the reference we use for bust halves, Overton, was written and edited by two individuals who cared not a whit about die states, so walking a fine line is not always possible. I have to agree with Mozin- if a trace of the beard can be seen on your coin, then it is a virtual 111. This die state is not quite as rare as commonly believed, with perhaps as many as 8 examples known.
<< <i>I wanted to bring this back to the top again before I list this coin on Ebay.
As it stands there are 4 recorded O-111's without any die breaks. But we found out on this thread that at least one of those has a very light die break between stars 3 and 4.
This narrows it down to 3 known that "MAY NOT" have any kind of die break at all.
So the question remains. Does the 1807 O-111 prime really exist without any die breaks of any kind?
Or should the criteria be officially changed to allow for the die break around stars 3 and 4? If the later is the case it is too bad this was not included in Parsley's 4th edition of Overtons since apparently some have believed this was the criteria since as early as 1987.
As you can see the prime die state becomes problematic. Should we allow for a slightly longer die break stars 2 through 5 or just 3 through 4, and ect. Since we are dealing with a rarity that brings in excess of $10,000 for a circulated prime designation it is worth the clarification. >>
If you would have read the other thread a little closer you would have seen that when my coin was sold back in 1992 Sheridan clearly states that it is an EARLIER die state then Overton's own plate coin for the 111 so it is not new information and it would not surprise me if no coin exists without some trace of a crack between star 3 & 4.
This is a unique variety in numismatics as no other coin has developed such a distinct crack in this area and it seems clear long ago that any example without a trace of the "beard" crack is considered the 111. Should it have been clarified in Overton's book? That is not for me to say but it is clear that the bust half community considers examples without ANY trace of the crack at the chin or bust line falls into the 111 category instead of 111a.
Is this variety handled differently when it comes to what is considered a 111 and what is the later 111a die state? Probably but there are a number of instances in numismatics where exceptions are made for such unusual pieces as the Bearded Goddess. As was stated above if Sheridan examined your coin and seen a trace of a crack or the start of one (and it looks like there is something going on in the two spots where the "beard" crack develops) then in the bust half community your piece will most liklely be considered a 111a instead of a 111. There is a reason why he is considered one of the worlds foremost authorities on Bust Half Dollars, his passion and dedication to the series for well over 20 years should speak volumes about how respected his opinion is when it comes to identifying die varieties and die states.
Rotatated Rainbows:
Of course we can offer God like status to Sheridan and in part I agree. But that was hardly the question. The question never was about my coin versus your coin. The question was; does the true prime exist without any die cracks, and I believe Slumlord hit it right on the head with his answer he provided on this thread just a few posts back. By the way who is the bust half community? I thought I fit in there somewhere.
So basically I agree with Slumlord, that probably a true prime without any die cracks at all probably does not exist.
And Rotated Rainbows you would have to agree that Overton's plate coin had more die cracks than yours, as per Sheridan. Yet Overton called his the O-111 or what we have been calling the prime on this thread.
Best regards - Biddle
What it comes down to is die states and how to determine when a coin goes from so called "prime" to state "A" and "B" and over time it does seem that a coin with no trace of the "beard" crack has come to be known as a 111 (whether truly a prime or not) and coins where a trace or more of the "beard" crack is where the die states change.
I appreciate your last post and agree.
Just a point of interest on this thread. This is the first time I ever employed the reference phrase, "as per Sheridan." Now I have to consider whether or not to make that a part of my new lexicon or nomenclature.
As per Overton; as per Herrman; as per Dr. Peterson; and now shall it be "as per Sheridan."
The first three have written reference material and I suppose Sheridan in his fashion has written reference material via his mail bid sales and auctions. But the end analysis is I do not feel confortable saying, "as per Sheridan." However it would be be very welcome if he did publish a reference book and provide his expertise for public consumption.
Best regards - Biddle
It must be nice to be able to see so many special coins but I think it would be hard for a collector to handle so many nice coins without wanting to keep many of them for their own collection (if they could afford it). It would be nice if he did write a book because he has amassed so much knowledge by being able to handle, study and catalog so many rare varieties for his auction catalogs. I have most of his old auction catalogs starting from his price lists where he would auction a rare variety or two up thru the late 90's.
Several years ago he put together a dublicate collection of all of his early mail bid and auctions catalogs. I bid them but not high enough as the winning bid was in the $700 range, if I remember right. I suspect who got them but do not know for sure.
A full and complete reprint of all his mail bids and auctions in book form would be very welcome. Perhaps someday it will come to pass.
Pricing for the Bearded Goddess, as it progresses into the latest die state, indicates that bigger is indeed better.
<< <i>The 1807 O-111 is missing from my Overton collection. My first preference is for at least an XF problem free coin encapsulated by PCGS---with the biggest beard I can find!
Pricing for the Bearded Goddess, as it progresses into the latest die state, indicates that bigger is indeed better.
I know what you mean, back in the 80's B & M had a nice 111b (cannot remember if it was the Beebee sale or the Norweb sale) they sent me the coin before the auction so I could examine it and I fell in love with it. I put in a strong bid (more then I really wanted to bid) just to make sure I could win it as it was one of those had to have it coins so I bid way above market for it but someone else felt the same way I did and I ended up being the under bidder. Never did run across another one I liked as much as that one
At say $50 each copy, I wonder how many sales it would take to be cost effective. I would be willing to pay more, but I think a higher price would discourage a large number of collectors. I have no idea what it would cost to print 200-500 copies.
Sheridan said:
True primes DO exist. At the recent FUN Show I sold a pretty VF to an advanced collector (non-BHNC who also owns an 1817/4). The coin was cherried in late 2006 by the redoubtable Brian Greer and consigned to me. When I say "True Prime" I mean no die breaks at all. The Overton O.111 tacitly accepts a die break in the left hand stars. I say this because the distinguishing mark of an O.111a, said Overton, is the crack from chest to chin. Thus, if no db chest to chin you have an O.111; you may NOT, however, have a "True Prime."
The recent Zornes coin had a thin break around star 4. I wasn't positive whether a "nub" appeared atop the chest, signifying the start of Liberty's beard, and graduation from O.111 to early O.111a. I should have pulled a 111a or 111b from inventory and identified the precise location of the die break (as it intersects the chest).
My guess is that a dozen or so O.111's exist, 3 or 4 of which are True Primes. Note well, I said GUESS.
AMEN. GOOD WORK MOZIN.