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AUCTION MANIA!!! A STAGGERING sale of a 1921 Saint!@? This could get very interesting!
saintguru
Posts: 7,724 ✭✭✭
Last night B&M sold this PCGS 1921 MS63 Saint for $1.495 MILLION!! The price should have been in the $250K range. An MS66 is worth about $1.1-1.25MM. This coin is NOT remotely an MS66 or even MS65...
It is not a typo. I watched the sale as it opened at ~$250 and just kept on going! I would love to see what the CF has to say about this!
It is not a typo. I watched the sale as it opened at ~$250 and just kept on going! I would love to see what the CF has to say about this!
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It looks very 63 no doubt.
No doubt there were a few bidiots fighting it out.
why would anyone pay that sorta money for a lady with one arm ?
From the auction description. Looks like it's destined for a bath.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
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The pic on this thread does not show what I am talking about.
That price to me is - who knows anymore!!!!
Russ, NCNE
Maybe a lottery winner???
Maybe someone who was desperate to fill a difficult hole in their set???
Or someone who wanted to be a famous idiot???
I think I recognized the high bidder on the floor, but I'm not sure. Maybe I could find a photo of him.
roadrunner
The fourth and final coin in our discussion of 20th century gold issues is the rarest, although it is not necessarily the best known. Although some experts might disagree, I would rank the 1921 as the rarest Philadelphia double eagle of this design. Unlike its closest competitor the 1932, the 1921 is most often seen in the AU55 to MS61 range and it is extremely rare in MS64 and above.
The true rarity of this date was not known to the early generation of St. Gaudens double eagle collectors. Back in the day, the issues that were most actively sought were the mintmarked coins from the mid-1920’s. But hundreds of these were eventually located in Europe and in all grades below MS64; most of these coins are now only moderately scarce. Unlike dates such as the 1924-D, 1925-S and 1926-S, the 1921 was not exported to Europe. The “story behind the story” of the 1921 is very interesting and the true rarity of this date can be better understood when this is discussed.
Two things conspired to make the 1921 double eagle a rare coin. The first was that most of the mint’s production capacity and efforts in 1921 went towards silver dollars. Millions of Morgan Dollars were produced after a near-two decade hiatus and these were followed by the new Peace Dollar which was a complex, hard to produce High Relief design. Secondly, the United States economy in 1921 was going through a post-World War One slump which would continue until the middle part of the decade. Few gold coins were circulating in the early 1920’s and there was not a great deal of demand for double eagles in 1921. As a result, many of the 528,500 1921 double eagles that were struck were melted.
In addition to being rare because of mass meltings, this issue is rare because of the way it was produced. The 1921 is among the worst struck St. Gaudens double eagles and it is generally seen with poor luster. This shoddy level of workmanship meant that most examples were of inferior quality before they were produced. Coupled with the fact that the survivors tend to show heavy marks from rough handling and copious hairlines from numismatic abuse, the 1921 is among the rarest dates of this type in the higher Uncirculated grades.
It is likely that somewhere in the area of 60-80 examples are known. The PCGS and NGC population figures are both inflated with the AU58 and MS62 numbers showing the greatest number of resubmissions due to attempts to garner upgrades. The 1921 becomes an extremely rare coin in MS63 and above. There are probably no more than four to six known that grade MS63 or higher.
In 2005, I had the honor of handling the finest known 1921 double eagle. At Heritage’s Morse sale, my ex-partner and I purchased a PCGS MS66 example for $1,092,500. At the same sale, an MS65 example sold for $805,000 while and MS64 realized $402,500. Today, all three of these coins have been placed in prominent collections where they will, no doubt, remain for many years.
If any other high grade 1921 double eagles become available for sale, I would expect to see them sell for record prices. This is one 20th century issue whose rarity can not be disputed and it seems highly unlikely that any hoard or accumulations of this date are going to appear at any time in the future.
THIS: This coin is being speculated to be "one of ONE documented" "assay proofs", however the only one recognized as such sold in 2000.... no one seemed to catch this coin being a suspect proof over the years. It was slabbed MS, B&M never questioned the issue, and frankly, even if it is a proof it's still an outrageous price. And there is no guarantee that it will regrade PROOF. Proving a proof (
Even if the coin IS a proof, I'd take an MS65 over a PF63 anyday...so the valuation is absurd in my opinion; I think this coin, even though very rare, is a $1.5 million albatross even though it's certainly got a mid six figure value.
RYK...ask Doug what he thought about this coin. He saw it.
Stay tuned coin buffs. This is a story unfolding before your eyes.
Having not heard anything subsequent to the sale of the coin you're referring to I'd assume that it was a MS coin and not a proof. No 1921 proof sainta has been graded by any TPG.
And for the record, I am not saying that I believe this is a proof, but that this is the reason the buyer and bidders ran it up so high. 2
and a GREEN label to boot!
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
I agree. Who would have thought that Saints could be interesting?!
1) In 1921 George Morgan prepared one satin proof double eagle as gift for Mint Director Raymond T. Baker. Apparently, this was done to curry favor with the director on the birth of his daughter, Gloria. (Baker’s wife was Margaret Emerson Smith Hollins McKim Vanderbilt, the widow of Alfred Vanderbilt who went down with the Lusitanian in 1915.) The coin remained with Baker’s heirs until the 1990s.
2) A “satin proof” was made by using new dies, a very smooth planchet, and striking on a medal press. It has all the characteristics of a sandblast proof, except the post-striking sandblasting.
3) The phrase “assay proof” refers to the high purity proofing gold used in assaying. It has no meaning in mint documents relating to proof coins as collectors commonly understand them.
4) In early 1922 T. Louis Comparette, Curator of the Philadelphia Mint cabinet of coins provided 2 examples of the 1921 $20 to Robert Godard, Curator of the Mitchelson Collection and State Librarian for Connecticut. (Comparette on December 15, 1921: “Some [1921] double eagles are being struck here at the mint. On December 22: “…up till now I have not been able to secure the Double eagles. I confidently expect to succeed, however, though it may not be until the last days of the year. Then, finally, on January 3, 1922. “By express I am sending you two Double Eagles….”
Most of the 1921 $20s were held as reserve funds and not generally released to circulation.
The Morse coin was apparently the one Godard eventually obtained for himself. The Mitchelson example (somewhat better) is still in Connecticut.
PS: There is no connection between the 1921 $20 satin proof, and 1921 sandblast or satin proof Peace dollars. They were made at different times and for completely different purposes. (See "Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921" to learn more about the versions of Peace dollar proofs for 1921 and 1922.)
<< <i>Concensus at the coin dealer poker game was that the coin had matte surfaces indicative of a specimen and at least two bidders thought it was indeed a proof. >>
Yes indeed they did. Some called them "questionably artificial surfaces", including Akers. High stakes poker anyone?
New dealer...David Hall will be taking over guys. Good luck.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
The best eyes in the biz never even hinted at it being a proof. Now, I'm told a prominent "expert" believes this coin to be a proof.
I believe this to be a saga that will probably prove to be a folly for the buyer.
<< <i>The Mitchelson example (somewhat better) is still in Connecticut. >>
I guess I'll sell some property and wait for this one.....
roadrunner
Most of the 1921 $20s were held as reserve funds and not generally released to circulation.
The Morse coin was apparently the one Godard eventually obtained for himself. The Mitchelson example (somewhat better) is still in Connecticut.
PS: There is no connection between the 1921 $20 satin proof, and 1921 sandblast or satin proof Peace dollars. They were made at different times and for completely different purposes. (See "Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921" to learn more about the versions of Peace dollar proofs for 1921 and 1922.)
Good post RWB. Let me update you on the current provenace of these two coins. The Mitchelson coin which was in CT. is now a PCGS MS65 in the DUCKOR collection. The Godard coin was purchased by the CT. owner in the Morse sale and is a PCGS MS66.
My reference to the Peace Dollar was simply to establish that proofs were being minted in Philadelphia, after a number of years of not producing any. There was no other implied connection.
The specimen in question here did not exhibit any satin finsh at all, and in fact, as I stated earlier, had very questionable coloration which the best of the best considered "suspect". I just do not think this was struck as a proof coin.
<< <i>I recall when Mr. Eureka and someone else were battling it out on a 1876-cc dime in a major dime collection in 1990 (Stack's?). The coin fetched $25,000 and I had it as a PL MS65 or something. I figured the buyer was nuts as it was no higher than a 65-66. Well it slabbed out as a branch mint proof. That explained it all. It was not catalogued as a proof either.
roadrunner >>
Was Mr Eureka the winner of that battle??
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Heck...anybody can get a Special Proof/Presentation designation these days...especially for $1.5M
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
I've seen the Sotheby's coin and another impaired specimen sold a couple of years ago, both of which I believe to be 95% convincing proofs. This piece is very, very similar in fabric. My opinion is that all three qualify as "special strikes", if not full satin proofs. This most recent piece should be graded PR or SP 64, but it could take quite a while to get a TPG to agree.
BTW, the jump to 63 to 64 is based on the fact for any given numeric grade, hairlines are more acceptable on proofs than on uncs. If I believed the coin to be a regular business strike, I'd say that 63 was the right grade.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
roadrunner >>
Was Mr Eureka the winner of that battle??
Yes, but it was only 10K and it was more like 1986-88. It's probably a six-figure coin today. Too bad I didn't keep it.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I believe this to be a saga that will probably prove to be a folly for the buyer. >>
I'm sure that anyone who can afford $1.5 mil for a coin can afford to eat it. Its probly not like he had to dig under his couch cushions like some of us.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
I love how there is a new owner on one of these rarities, then all-of-a-sudden, after years of experts looking at them, and even TPG's grading them, that they somehow are something DIFFERENT now, (like a proof from a non-proof), 100 years later. Right...
This thread will die over the next 4 months, and everyone will have forgotten about it. The new owner will be fine. Tell Jack Lee it could be a Specimen, and he'll buy it for $2,000,000.
BTW, I feel MS's are more desirable and worth MORE than proofs in the saints.
My offer stands.....My MS64 1921 is still available!
This sounds like a Kevin Lipton type of coin.....
Good point Lloyd! There were TWO bidders that were convinced of its value!
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
True or not, it won't reside in that holder for long.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Are you convinced it will get into a Proof 63/64 holder?
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
I can name 20 off the bat. And they are all 1907.
<< <i> I was informed from a reliable source that the coin now resides in a PCGS MS64 holder!
True or not, it won't reside in that holder for long. >>
Right. It will be in an ANACS MS66 Proof holder.
I'm convinced that it will go into a SP or PR holder before it is sold. Whether that takes a week or a decade is anyone's guess.
And as for getting the coin graded, B&M delivered lots Saturday morning. No reason why PCGS couldn't have graded it already.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Legend, you should be happy as you bought the 1921 in MS65 for $800k which seems like a steal now!
Pinnacle should be even happier buying the MS66 for less than this coin in question brought.
I have owned three 1921's in my collecting experience and just love the date. I love the MS64 I still have.....
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Trembling in anticipation at seeing what must be the finest 1921 $20 ever released, I directed the family into the library and produced a pad to unwrap the coin onto. I opened up the paper, and found a coin that must have been polished dozens of times over the years.
AAAARRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Never even thought that it might have been a Proof. It was so far gone I doubt if I could have told.
TD
Jack Lee knew this Walker well.
<< <i>No one stupidly risks that kind of money. >>
yea right