I think I just got screwed again in the Superior auction.

kalch23 · May 29, 2006 10:31PM

A week ago, I placed a $17,000 bid on this coin through the sgbh website. Going into the auction, I was the higher bidder at $12,500.

I see in the bid history, a live floor bidder won the coin for $17,000, which was my bid, which was placed over a week ago. This might be my bid but I don't think so since I'm not seeing the asterisk signifying absentee bidder and I've received no invoice.

kalch23 · May 29, 2006 10:38PM

It sounds like their auctioneer doesn't know what he's doing.

jayboxx · May 29, 2006 10:40PM

It's an auction fer criminey sake, how hard can it be?

fc · May 29, 2006 11:01PM

thank you kalch for discussing this.
i noticed some very pretty expensive coins with them
but i was not going to bid until i learn more.

mrearlygold · May 29, 2006 11:19PM

Whew

ebaytrader · May 30, 2006 12:01AM

<< It sounds like their auctioneer doesn't know what he's doing. >>

Brad?

If you paid more, then I think he knew exactly what he was doing.

RYK · May 30, 2006 12:07AM

You may have been the bidder at $16k, floor bidder at $17k, you have no instructions to go higher, you lose. Of course, by losing, there is the distinct possibility that you actually won (and may never appreciate it).

kalch23 · May 30, 2006 12:33AM

<< You may have been the bidder at $16k, floor bidder at $17k, you have no instructions to go higher, you lose. Of course, by losing, there is the distinct possibility that you actually won (and may never appreciate it).

>>

I saw the coin in hand at Superior and it was flat out amazing.

Also, I thought the ealier bid always take precedent.

OKbustchaser · May 30, 2006 4:19AM

<< 

<< You may have been the bidder at $16k, floor bidder at $17k, you have no instructions to go higher, you lose. Of course, by losing, there is the distinct possibility that you actually won (and may never appreciate it).

>>

I saw the coin in hand at Superior and it was flat out amazing.

Also, I thought the ealier bid always take precedent. >>

From the Live Auction FAQ

<< 
How Absentee Bids Work

You've found a lot (item) that you like, but you don't want to come back to place a real-time bid during the auction. You can place an "absentee" bid instead. Here's how it works:

Once you find a lot on which you want to bid, sign up to participate in that auction. After you're approved, go back to the lot page and input the maximum amount you are willing to pay for that lot - that is your absentee bid.

Approved bidders can place absentee bids up to one hour before the live event begins. When the auction starts, we will then process all the absentee bids and calculate what the winning absentee bid is. The winning absentee bid equals the second highest bid plus one bid increment. This value will be communicated to the auctioneer.

Here is an example:

• Rob places an absentee bid of $1,000 for Lot #123.
• Dan places an absentee bid of $1,500 for Lot #123.
• Ben places an absentee bid of $2,000 for Lot #123.
• When we clear all absentee bids, Ben is the winning bidder with a winning absentee bid amount of $1,600 ($1,500 plus one bid increment of $100).

When the Live Auction starts, we will let the auctioneer know that there is an Internet absentee bid for $1,600. If there are no higher bids during the auction, Ben is the winner. However, if floor or real-time Internet bidders place a bid above $1,600, the Live Auctions system will bid on Ben's behalf up to his maximum of $2,000. We will never bid above your maximum amount.

Because bids amounts are incremental, in some cases, a live bidder may win an auction with a bid that is equal to the absentee bid.

Here is an example:

Bob places an absentee bid of $1,300.
Dennis is on the floor bidding live.

The auctioneer opens the bidding at $1,000, which goes to Bob.
The next increment is $1,100, which Dennis raises his paddle for and wins.
The computer proxy bids to $1,200 for Bob.
Dennis places the next bid and wins the auction at $1,300.
The computer proxy was unable to counter Dennis's bid of $1300 because Bob chose $1300 as the highest amount he was willing to pay when he placed his absentee bid. Make sure the absentee bid you place is the maximum amount you're willing to pay because we cannot bid above that amount - as in the example above. >>

streeter · May 30, 2006 4:29AM

Let me see if I understand......an absentee bidder is forced to RESPOND( by computer) to live floor bids and CANNOT win against a live floor bid at the same maximum price.

elwood · May 30, 2006 4:34AM

should have bid $17,001.00

OKbustchaser · May 30, 2006 4:39AM

<< Let me see if I understand......an absentee bidder is forced to RESPOND( by computer) to live floor bids and CANNOT win against a live floor bid at the same maximum price. >>

Correct. (although not necessarily by computer-a phone bid would work...so would using a live agent) There is no way for the auctioneer to raise an absentee bid without authorization--nor should there be.

RYK · May 30, 2006 4:40AM

should have bid $17,001.00

That's a good point. When you are bidding absentee, it is important to know the rules and how to work them in your favor. Had you bid $17,001 or 17,100 the next cut bid would be $17,500. At $17,500, you would have felt that you lost fair and square.

BECOKA · May 30, 2006 5:19AM

I don't think they allow fractional bids like e-bay. I think you have to place the next increment. This is why he should have won at $17K, otherwise the winner should have bid the next increment above 17K.

Have you called to find out what happened?

jpkinla · May 30, 2006 5:26AM

I have been to many auctions and cannot recall another where so many lots were reopened or confused in their resolution. The auctioneer DID NOT have control of the sale and the backroom paperwork was obviously in disarray. Fortunately for me, none of my lots were screwed up but I saw several lots that were handled poorly. If a lot closes, it closes.....You do not reopen it unless there was an error made.....and you must do it quickly.....I don't think that Superior's actions were improper, just sloppy.....Those that felt they were screwed weren't but the fact that the sloppiness was not once or twice should bother Superior management....

The good news is I snagged a $20 Lib 1877-P in MS64 (POP 1) and bought it correctly....

Coxe · May 30, 2006 5:28AM

I had a similar thing happen in one of their Santa Clara sales. Everyone lost except the floor buyer (whom I know) who got an unbelievable deal on a coin because they simply didn't suspend their sale until their computer was back up with the mail/internet bids. Haven't bid since then with them. But I am not into grudges and really only have one other complaint in all the time with them. Mainly don't like their online catalogues and haven't happened by one of their live auctions.

Oh and you were not the only one screwed. They shot their own foot. The commission difference would have paid for a rather nice lunch for all those in attendance at the auction probably.

OKbustchaser · May 30, 2006 5:31AM

<< I don't think they allow fractional bids like e-bay. I think you have to place the next increment. This is why he should have won at $17K, otherwise the winner should have bid the next increment above 17K. >>

Why? He DIDN"T BID 17K! He bid 16K with an authorization to go to 17K. Had the auctioneer automatically raised his 16K bid without a floor bid then he would be on here complaining (rightfully) that Superior maxed out his bid unnecessarily.

Once again, in a live auction a presale absentee "bid" IS NOT A BID. It is merely an authorization for the auction company to bid for him during the sale up to a given amount.

TONEDDOLLARS · May 30, 2006 5:51AM

I have been at auctions where the book is $17,000 or what ever and they hav e awarded the lot to any floor bidder
who would match the high book. I never understood why this happened, but it did happen more than once and I was told that it happens all the time

bidask · May 30, 2006 6:29AM

What was your impression of the auction relative to the market?

PerryHall · May 30, 2006 7:35AM

<< I have been at auctions where the book is $17,000 or what ever and they hav e awarded the lot to any floor bidder
who would match the high book. I never understood why this happened, but it did happen more than once and I was told that it happens all the time >>

The floor bidder is presumed to have examined the coin and there is no return; hence, its a done deal. A mail bidder can argue for a return if the coin isn't to his liking.

aficionado · May 30, 2006 8:39AM

Maybe you can blame the 'house' bidder, the one that puts up your bid.

When 17K came up, the bidder on the floor raised his paddle before anybody else, including how your bid is entered. If your guy would have waved your paddle first, then the coin could have been yours.

Maybe they wait to see if a floor bidder is bidding and if not put yours in, that could be the benefit of being there.

That's how you lost. Which has been explained a couple times in the tread, though not as clearly as I have explained

BECOKA · May 30, 2006 8:48AM

<< Maybe you can blame the 'house' bidder, the one that puts up your bid.

When 17K came up, the bidder on the floor raised his paddle before anybody else, including how your bid is entered. If your guy would have waved your paddle first, then the coin could have been yours.

Maybe they wait to see if a floor bidder is bidding and if not put yours in, that could be the benefit of being there.

That's how you lost. Which has been explained a couple times in the tread, though not as clearly as I have explained

>>

This seems to ring a bell. I remember reading in the rules a long time ago that in the event of a tie the floor bidder wins everytime. It may still be worth reading the lengthy rules again to weed out the details.

MikeKing · May 30, 2006 9:29AM

I'm not so sure he lost, perhaps what beartracks mentions for the Goldberg auction, i.e., bidding on their web site (not ebay) makes you appear as a floor bidder when the live auction is sent thru the internet. My guess is the only way kalch23 would have lost is if he was bid up to 16000 and the next floor bid would have been 17000 from someone else which would have been his limit, or a floor bidder at 17000 was chosen before his proxy bid of 17000 as mentioned by someone above.

roadrunner · May 30, 2006 10:26AM

I've seen similar cases at Stack's and they often ask the floor bidder to go a fractional increment higher.....such as $17,250. I've seen it happen a lot. But the first bid in rule usually seems to be the one that counts.

This is also a reason that if I ever enter a book or internet bid, or ebay for that matter, I never use a rounded bid. On this lot I may have gone $17,125, $17,077 or something similar.

roadrunner

Conder101 · May 30, 2006 10:26AM

<< Once again, in a live auction a presale absentee "bid" IS NOT A BID. It is merely an authorization for the auction company to bid for him during the sale up to a given amount. >>

I have been at live auctions in the past where the floor bidder has tied the book and in those cases the person running the book announced that they had a prior bid at that level and the floor bidder then had to beat the book bid to win.

And I would disagree that a presale absentee bid is not a bid. I think it is a bid. You BID that amount and then the auction house works to try and represent you and acquire it for less if possible.

REALGATOR · May 30, 2006 10:44AM

If I'm serious about an item, I dont use round or repeating digits. I once got lucky sniping an auction with the high bid showing $270, I entered 377.80 and won the auction where the underbidder entered 377.77. When bidding: A. Dont be lazy - put some thought into your exact bid and B. Dexterity pays.

-RG

OKbustchaser · May 30, 2006 10:44AM

<< 

<< Once again, in a live auction a presale absentee "bid" IS NOT A BID. It is merely an authorization for the auction company to bid for him during the sale up to a given amount. >>

I have been at live auctions in the past where the floor bidder has tied the book and in those cases the person running the book announced that they had a prior bid at that level and the floor bidder then had to beat the book bid to win.

And I would disagree that a presale absentee bid is not a bid. I think it is a bid. You BID that amount and then the auction house works to try and represent you and acquire it for less if possible. >>

Depends on the TOS for that particular auction house. You are right; there are many auction houses where a prior book authorization would take precedence. Here it clearly states that the actual bid during the sale is accepted, not necessarily the authorization. It would be nice if book "bids" did take precedence, but here they didn't. Again it is a case of "Read the rules prior to bidding".

OKbustchaser · May 30, 2006 10:49AM

<< If I'm serious about an item, I dont use round or repeating digits. I once got lucky sniping an auction with the high bid showing $270, I entered 377.80 and won the auction where the underbidder entered 377.77. When bidding: A. Dont be lazy - put some thought into your exact bid and B. Dexterity pays.

-RG >>

You will find that most live auctions will not take off increment bids. In other words, if a floor bidder goes to 350.00 and the next increment was 400.00 then your authorization to go to 377.77 would not matter unless this was an auction where "book takes the tie."

2ndCharter · May 30, 2006 10:54AM

I agree with Roadrunner. I have been to numerous auctions, including Heritage, where if the high mail or internet bid matches the floor bid, they will ask the floor bidder to go a small increment over the mail bid (say 17,250 on the aforementioned 17,000) and if the floor bidder declines, the mail bidder gets the lot.

kalch23 · May 30, 2006 11:07AM

I just got in touch with somebody at Superior and, after looking into the lot, it appears that I did in fact win the lot at my max bid of $17,000.

I was told they haven't invoiced all lots yet and that's why I wasn't notified.

:-)

majorbigtime · May 30, 2006 11:16AM

superior (oops, I mean Inferior) sucks!!

Coxe · May 30, 2006 11:17AM

<< 

<< If I'm serious about an item, I dont use round or repeating digits. I once got lucky sniping an auction with the high bid showing $270, I entered 377.80 and won the auction where the underbidder entered 377.77. When bidding: A. Dont be lazy - put some thought into your exact bid and B. Dexterity pays.

-RG >>

You will find that most live auctions will not take off increment bids. In other words, if a floor bidder goes to 350.00 and the next increment was 400.00 then your authorization to go to 377.77 would not matter unless this was an auction where "book takes the tie." >>

That would be a cut bid. Some let you do that, but cut you off from further bidding if someone outbids that. It's risky to be that cheap sometimes.

OKbustchaser · May 30, 2006 11:37AM

<< 

<< 

<< If I'm serious about an item, I dont use round or repeating digits. I once got lucky sniping an auction with the high bid showing $270, I entered 377.80 and won the auction where the underbidder entered 377.77. When bidding: A. Dont be lazy - put some thought into your exact bid and B. Dexterity pays.

-RG >>

You will find that most live auctions will not take off increment bids. In other words, if a floor bidder goes to 350.00 and the next increment was 400.00 then your authorization to go to 377.77 would not matter unless this was an auction where "book takes the tie." >>

That would be a cut bid. Some let you do that, but cut you off from further bidding if someone outbids that. It's risky to be that cheap sometimes. >>

Not to say it doesn't happen, but I have never seen a cut bid go to book...only to a floor bidder.

raycyca · May 30, 2006 12:03PM

Happened to me MANY times at antique auctions! Floor bidder ALWAYS wins over mail bids, ALWAYS!!!! I have left bids for an item that was estimated at 400-500. I bid $1000. It OPENED at my bid. Sold for $1700. Last week I left a bid for 2K for a pai of bottles. It sold for 2K, NO, not me, floor bidder. Estimate was $1000-1500. The auctioneer anounced he had a mail bid for 2K, asked if anyone wanted it for that price, 1 person said yes, and it was theirs. Was told that by a person on the floor 2 days later. So coins are not the only place this happens. If you REALLY want an item, bid as high as possible. Don't fret if you don't get it, because someone else wanted it more. Good luck next time! Ray

I think I just got screwed again in the Superior auction.

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