My very short take on the Anaconda Peace Dollar.

keets · February 15, 2006 11:08PM

Short and sweet, this is the type of thing that will eventually bring a halt to the Toned Coin Market as it's developed over the past several years. If you're paying attention, and it seems many are, trust will be eroded not only in the coins themselves, but in the major grading services and the dealers who purport to be reputable and able to discern the complex AT/NT debate. It also will bring that non-descript and suspect outfit, the much ballyhooed NCA, up to the plate. They need to walk out into the light, really.

JMHO, what's yours??

Al H.

LanLord · February 15, 2006 11:30PM

I gotta admit, I have had my head in the sand when it comes to toned dollars.

Is there another post or posts that this is referring to? I haven't seen the Anaconda Peace dollar.

BigD5 · February 15, 2006 11:30PM

Without being able to see that Peace dollar "in hand", I won't comment too much on that particular coin.

Overall, I think the TPG's do a decent job in discerning AT coins that are submitted to them. Are they perfect? Of course not. I'm not sure if enough "bad" coins have surfaced to lose all faith in the TPG's. There have definitely been some real "gems", but overall the TPG's do a good job in this area.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't think the problem is to the extreme that you are hinting at Keets. "eventually bring a halt to the toned coin market".

tradedollarnut · February 15, 2006 11:47PM

No, it won't .... many collectors and dealers have the expertise to steer away from such coins.

Lakesammman · February 15, 2006 11:56PM

No. Some people like those kind of coins.

There are an aweful lot of coins that are starting to look the same. Baby blue Morgans. Blue post-NCS copper. It's a shame so many coins are getting ruined, but it makes original coins that much rarer and valuable.

CTcollector · February 16, 2006 12:03AM

<< No, it won't .... many collectors and dealers have the expertise to steer away from such coins. >>

I would tend to agree. However, the TPG's, particularly NGC, are now allowing much more AT to enter the market place in their holders. Even the amateur jobs are getting through with a star rating. Heck, I am even starting to see AT coins in newer holders that have bunsen burner (or similar apparatus) prints on them. The point I am trying to make is I think all the doctored crap that is floating around can start to drag down the legitimate stuff, particularly if TPG and "Monster" Toner confidence erodes. Experienced collectors and dealers will know the difference and steer clear, but newer blood might be scared off or hesitant.

Trinketts · February 16, 2006 12:14AM

All it has done is make me like original color on a coin more....

keets · February 16, 2006 12:18AM

as in all consumer goods, the key is confidence. once that's shaken the dominoes start to fall. my sense is simply that as more things like this happen more consumers will tend to err on the side of caution and pricing will fall back.

also, more who held out that this was genuine and who would like us to have confidence in their opinion seem to have dissappeared, while those who were either suspicious or didn't comment till the truth was known are now puffing and preening; very distressing. for my own part and reply to the original thread---quite a striking coin, i was wrong on the date as the thread was opening, i guessed 1925!!! i be curious to know what the dealer paid for the raw coin.---i tend to be very cautious and defer knowledge to those who are clearly more knowledgeable than me and tuned into the topic, as well as the confidence a TPG of reputable history brings. when i come to a point where i can't trust them i don't have much choice. two really, take a big chance or stand patt.

as more coins such as this end up in holder's of the major services, get posted on forums such as this, get sold by reputable dealers on eBay and wowwww-ed by dealers that we've come to trust and should know better, what choice does the average collector have but to be cautious??

kiyote · February 16, 2006 12:22AM

"Anaconda Peace Dollar" isn't being fair-- Brandon was the loser in a game of hot potato... this is a gottoning Peace Dollar if it's anyone's. It's like saying "In light of the Ford Theatre's assasination of President Lincoln..."

I agree, though, this is enough to darned near scare anyone off. On a sadder note, I thought the days of ruining coins by taking a brillo pad to them were over; now we're ruining them by baking them in an over. o.O

kiyote · February 16, 2006 12:28AM

Maybe one day the coin doctors like gottoning will be viewed as artists, much like Bert, who chisled away at buffalo nickels to carve clowns and hobos.

jcping · February 16, 2006 12:37AM

> particularly NGC, are now allowing much more AT to enter the market place in their holders

BigD5 · February 16, 2006 12:41AM

<< > particularly NGC, are now allowing much more AT to enter the market place in their holders

>>

PCGS and NGC are both guilty of this.

BigD5 · February 16, 2006 12:44AM

I should have just edited my previous response, but show examples of what you guys are talking about. I saw the mentioned Peace dollar slabbed by NGC, let's see some others. I know a board member listed a bunch of lots that were available on Teletrade that most of us would consider to be AT. Let's see 'em.

I think you'll find PCGS and NGC slabbed coins once you go through them, and then of course you have to validate your claim that they are AT. We wouldn't want to just throw erroneous comments "out there" without any proof now would we?

TheRaven · February 16, 2006 12:50AM

I don't like the look of that coin period, so that is all that matters to me.....

Not surprised that it would be AT.....

RYK · February 16, 2006 12:55AM

It also will bring that non-descript and suspect outfit, the much ballyhooed NCA, up to the plate. They need to walk out into the light, really.

I doubt it. My impression is that the NCA is going after coin sellers who target the unknowledgeable with overpriced bullion and "investment" coins. Toned coins are bought by collectors, not grandmas with their nest eggs.

cohodk · February 16, 2006 1:01AM

For what its worth. I submitted a Peace dollar to NGC that truely was in a Kraft paper 2x2. It sat in a metal bankers box for at least 20 years, maybe 30. I submitted the coin to NGC and it was BB for "residue".

Here is the coin. IMO it is 100% natural. The toning is thick enough to cut with a knife.

Proof · February 16, 2006 1:05AM

It should be a simple matter to weed out outrageously toned Peace dollars, because they simply never tone that way "naturally".

I am very concerned about the coin series that do display great toning. How will we tell if it is AT ??

I guess in the near future, we will just have to choose between a Dipped Morgan or an AT Morgan.

jayboxx · February 16, 2006 1:09AM

Cohodk, your Peace $ is really nice, I wonder what kind of residue they were referring to. I haven't seen the Anaconda one in person, but from the pictures I would much prefer yours anyway.

coinguy1 · February 16, 2006 1:18AM

<< I submitted the coin to NGC and it was BB for "residue >>

I don't think "residue" equates with questionable color or toning, but rather, with some substance (glue or tape residue, perhaps?) on the coin's surface. May we see an obverse image?

chabot510 · February 16, 2006 1:22AM

residue eh?

perhaps that gunk around the rim of the reverse. just a thought

Steve27 · February 16, 2006 1:32AM

If there is "residue" on the coin, an acetone bath should do the trick. Then when you submit it again, they'll tell you whether they believe it's AT or not.

cohodk · February 16, 2006 1:49AM

<< 

<< I submitted the coin to NGC and it was BB for "residue >>

I don't think "residue" equates with questionable color or toning, but rather, with some substance (glue or tape residue, perhaps?) on the coin's surface. May we see an obverse image? >>

Ask and ye shall receive. Actually there were 2 coins in that metal bankers box that were in kraft paper 2x2's.

Here is the obverse of the first one I pictured.

Here is the same coin held at a steeper angle to show how the toning lays on the coin. It does appear as though there is a thick, hazy film. Like I said these WERE stored in 2x2's.

Here is the other coin.

sinin1 · February 16, 2006 1:49AM

just because gototoning probably sold it does not mean that he made it does it?

even if it is a market acceptable toned coin determined by NGC, it does not mean the color market is going to die - many people collect colored coins like pieces of art

RedTiger · February 16, 2006 2:35AM

<< It should be a simple matter to weed out outrageously toned Peace dollars, because they simply never tone that way "naturally".

I am very concerned about the coin series that do display great toning. How will we tell if it is AT ??

I guess in the near future, we will just have to choose between a Dipped Morgan or an AT Morgan. >>

Weeding out assumes the coin doctors are stupid and simple minded. They are neither. They are smarter than the average collector, and many dealers. On some days they are a step ahead of the the professional graders, and some days a step behind. The ones that are way behind sell at the flea market and are not a real threat to the hobby. For every diagnostic, there is usually another work around. It is an endless battle, right now it seems there is a slight advantage to the doctors.

As to what it will do, it will make a small dent. One coin, no matter how high profile is just one coin. Now if a real scandal erupted such as a large collection of pedigreed slabbed gorgeous toners being 100% proven to be AT (admission in court testimony or similar), that would wreck havoc on the market. Another scenario is if swarms of these AT coins start going up on every day on Ebay in MS65+ holders, then the market will take care of itself with supply and demand. If it is only one or two doctors able to pass the coins, they would control the supply and avoid that situation.

Be careful out there.

mozin · February 16, 2006 4:16AM

I can see paying for next grade up when the toning is very special, so long as the price gap is within reason. If the price for next grade up is extreme, I would cut off paying more than triple white coin price for such a toner.

Personally, I will pay as much as 50% premium for obviously original toned Busties with special eye appeal, but no more.

When a professional coin dealer specializing in high grade toners makes a mistake in buying an AT coin, it is not the same as when a collector buys such a coin. Dealers often jack up prices on nicely toned coins so high that they should have a reserve account, to cover when they screw up, like on this Peace Dollar. JMHO

morgannut2 · February 16, 2006 9:12AM

Cohodk-- Your 2X2 toned coins of coarse are absolutely original NT. I had an identical problem with PCGS on a Morgan from the Fed. here (1961 or so) that I finally had to dip (ruin) it to get it in a 66 holder. I'm told they can NOT tell cigarette smoke (which tones this irridesent golden color if exposed to sunlight) --from an NT coin stored in a 2x2 for 20-55 years that looks close to the same. It's too bad--

Rob790 · February 16, 2006 9:34AM

<< > particularly NGC, are now allowing much more AT to enter the market place in their holders

>>

Here are some of this artist works in ANACS and PCGS holders.

This particular person's work all look the same 98% of the time and are always on coins with high silver content. If you see a coin with target toning on both sides, you can bet it's gototoning.

There are more examples of his work in PCGS, NGC and ANACS holders. It's not just an NGC thing.

My very short take on the Anaconda Peace Dollar.

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