Just picked up a raw 1884-CC Morgan with pitted dies - New VAM? - More Pictures and Question on Grad

nesvt · October 18, 2005 1:08PM

Picked up a few raw Morgans today. Have been able to attribute all but one. Found an 1883-O O/O VAM 13, 1901-O VAM 1A with a double clashed T in the hairvee, 1878-S VAM 5 with a triple eyelid and double wheat leaves. All are MS62-63.

I don't have enough experience or knowledge to be buying raw CC Morgans, but I couldn't pass on this 1884-CC. The photos of the obverse and reverse are horrible (they're my photos). The colors are off. The actual tone is more like the close-ups. It also needs an acetone bath.

Looks like the VAM 7 photo in the VAM book. First 8 is strongly doubled. My coin has SEVERELY pitted dies. Also has some nice cracks. The area above TES in STATES is displaced (lower above the letters). Is there a VAM 7A? Did I miss a new discovery? If not, do you think Leroy would give this one a new designation? I'd ask for opinions on grade, but I know the full-coin images are pretty bad.

jabba · October 18, 2005 1:36PM

I have no idea on the vam but Ive never a surface that looked like that before?

DennisH · October 18, 2005 1:44PM

Norm:

Your photos continue to amaze me!

The pitting actually looks fairly minor to me. On the various dates in the Morgan series where pitted reverse die VAM designations have been assigned, I believe they're all much more severe than this. Minor rusting of dies was fairly common in the Morgan series, and the resulting "pimple effect" is what I believe we see here.

I do believe, however, that the die crack on the top reverse has actually become serious enough to be a die break... and that could possibly be worthy of a new VAM number.

nesvt · October 18, 2005 2:05PM

Thanks Dennis. The close-ups came out pretty good for hotel lighting. I only have a couple of the Hot 50 1921-P Morgans with pitted dies. The pitting seems to be isolated in one or two areas. This 84-CC shows pitting on every raised surface, so I figured it must be different. It's not like my other two pitted die coins, so it must be unique.

I even used uppercase with SEVERE.

messydesk · October 18, 2005 8:47PM

The pitting looks similar to that seen on the 1882-O/S coins and some 1883 coins that I've seen. It would seem that the die steel used in 1882-84 was prone to light, even corrosion. Perhaps those were exceptionally muggy years in Philadelphia as well. The pitted die coins that have separate VAM numbers for being pitted usually have smaller areas of heavier corrosion. The die cracks just might be heavy enough to get a designation from Leroy. In the full reverse picture, it looks like the crack above STATES actually resulted in field displacement. The doubled 18 should be in the VAM book or supplements somewhere. I'd look, but my materials are about 4500 miles away right now.

RobJoyce1921dVAMguy · October 18, 2005 9:17PM

"Pimpled Eagled" cool

I agree with John that Leroy will probably not attribute it with a new VAM but may note it in the existing VAM number covering the die. Regardless of this, he should see it in case I'm wrong!

Rob

nesvt · October 22, 2005 5:45AM

I soaked the coin in acetone for two days. It looks much different. There's some nice frost on both sides. I'm not sure if the ding on Liberty's face is a dent or not. Under magnification, there is more area raised than dented. It almost looks like a dent in the die. The area with the most pitting is in the field near the arrow feathers. I'm going to send it to Leroy because the area over STATES looks displaced.

What do you think it would grade?

DorkGirl · October 22, 2005 8:25AM

When I first saw your pics I was going to comment on the raised bumps, but didn't. You confirm what I thought, the coin is frosty. I think there is something happening in the die preperation that causes them. I just can't find anything that tells me what exactly that is. I've seen it too, but only on proof or prooflike coins. Modern proofs have them, but the bumps are smaller.

Prooflike:

Kennedy:

Frost and mirrors:I think this coin is a circulated proof, and was trying to see if there was any way to verify it by looking closely at the frost, but frost is frost as far I can tell.

Stuart · October 22, 2005 12:40PM

nesvt: I noticed very similar pitted (or rusted Dies) texture in an 1881-S Morgan that I was lookig closely at today...

Just picked up a raw 1884-CC Morgan with pitted dies - New VAM? - More Pictures and Question on Grad

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