How could PCGS grade the same aluminum cent 4 points higher than ICG?

Gator5220 · October 7, 2005 3:25AM

I just read in CW that the same aluminum cent that was graded AU-58 has now been graded MS-62 by PCGS. How can this be? I would have thought it would be the other way around since PCGS is considered tighter than ICG.

Also, since the story told regarding this cent involves the coin being carried around by a congressman, does that automatically make it an AU?

Barry · October 7, 2005 3:27AM

We wouldn't have these problems if there were a 100 point scale...

ebaytrader · October 7, 2005 3:54AM

<< I would have thought it would be the other way around since PCGS is considered tighter than ICG. >>

ICG is very good on the classic coins and getting better (at least trying harder) on moderns.

Baley · October 7, 2005 3:58AM

sometimes, AU58 and MS62 are the same grade.

Russ · October 7, 2005 4:01AM

<< the coin being carried around by a congressman, does that automatically make it an AU? >>

Nope. One of the Sac mules that is graded mint state came from a post office vending machine.

Russ, NCNE

kranky · October 7, 2005 4:11AM

Coins are graded MS when there is no evidence of wear. Lots of coins could be pulled from circulation and still grade MS.

weresteve · October 7, 2005 4:12AM

<< How can this be?!? >>

Gradeflation ...

ms70 · October 7, 2005 4:22AM

AU58 / MS62 seem to be interchangeable in many cases.

tradedollarnut · October 7, 2005 4:23AM

Those two grades are practically interchangeable. One man's circulation wear is another man's cabinet friction....

FredWeinberg · October 7, 2005 4:25AM

I saw the 1974 Aluminum Cent in my office,
the day before it was put into a PCGS holder.

1. The coin is absolutely Mint State, and could have easily graded one point higher.

2. The coin is PQ with bright luster, and no trace of rub or wear whatsoever.

3. Because of the above two facts, I'm not sure about the story of it being found
on the steps of the Capital Building - there isn't a single bagmark or tick that I could see.
The "Story" could very well be true, but the condition of the coin apparently has no
correlation to what we THINK the coin would look like, if it were true.

4. The Aluminum Cent is simply breathtaking to see in person, and the actual question
should be how it was graded only AU-58 originally.

Fred

AgMe · October 7, 2005 4:55AM

<< Those two grades are practically interchangeable. One man's circulation wear is another man's cabinet friction.... >>

OKbustchaser · October 7, 2005 4:58AM

<< Those two grades are practically interchangeable. One man's circulation wear is another man's cabinet friction.... >>

Only in the minds of the TGP's who assign prices not grades. Wear is wear. If it has any it isn't MS.

Wolf359 · October 7, 2005 5:02AM

If this is the cent I saw in 2003, it has an outstanding detail in the strike and glowing luster. Very
different!

koynekwest · October 7, 2005 5:24AM

I don't know about the aluminum cent, but I've seen many "MS62" coins in many different TPG slabs that had light wear.

AgMe · October 7, 2005 5:34AM

Hmmmmm, I've always allowed a little (or in the case of Morgans A LOT) of "bagginess" for MS60-62.

I didn't say I liked it, just accepted it.

~g

paigowjohnny · October 7, 2005 5:35AM

<< How can this be? I would have thought it would be the other way around since PCGS is considered tighter than ICG. >>

Put down the kool aid and come toward the light.

KurtHorn · October 7, 2005 5:50AM

Come on, most people know that with the exception of real high grade modern crap, ICG is VERY conservative.

ziggy29 · October 7, 2005 6:49AM

In working on my type set, I have looked at a LOT of slabbed AU-58 coins. In my opinion, on average, the ICG 58s are the nicest of all.

I have a few theories on why that might be. Some of it might be less market grading there. Some of it might be that crackout artists figure there's no reason to send an ICG 58 to PCGS or NGC because they'll probably come back lower or no better. But whatever the reason, it's very much my opinion that the average ICG AU-58 is nicer than ANY other TPG's 58s...at least what's left after the nicer PCGS and NGC 58s have all been cracked out.

At around MS-63 or below, maybe 64, I put ICG as high on the list as anyone.

gyocomgd · October 7, 2005 6:57AM

Never heard of this type of spread between these two grading services. Pretty wild. All I know for sure is, objecting to will get you no further than a baseball manager trying to get the ump to reverse a called third strike.

ziggy29 · October 7, 2005 7:07AM

<< Never heard of this type of spread between these two grading services. Pretty wild. All I know for sure is, objecting to will get you no further than a baseball manager trying to get the ump to reverse a called third strike. >>

Actually, if a manager's goal is to get ejected and light a fire under his team, disputing a called third strike can get him pretty far!

MrEureka · October 7, 2005 7:11AM

How much more is it worth as a 62?

markglicker · October 7, 2005 7:13AM

Also, since the story told regarding this cent involves the coin being carried around by a congressman, does that automatically make it an AU?

If it was carried around by a Congressman, it probably started out as a $20 bill.

Gator5220 · October 7, 2005 7:29AM

<< If it was carried around by a Congressman, it probably started out as a $20 bill. >>

BTW, you have some beautiful coins on the bay.

ziggy29 · October 7, 2005 7:31AM

<< How much more is it worth as a 62? >>

Probably none, though the Kool-Aid crowd would prefer the PCGS slab.

In terms of market value, particularly nice 58s and 62s are basically interchangeable anyway.

relayer · October 7, 2005 7:53AM

<< Those two grades are practically interchangeable. One man's circulation wear is another man's cabinet friction.... >>

Exactly!

Russ · October 7, 2005 8:11AM

<< Come on, most people no that with the exception of real high grade modern crap, ICG is VERY conservative. >>

I'd guess you haven't handled many ICG graded Morgans in Gem and above.

Russ, NCNE

Regulated · October 7, 2005 12:33PM

Hasn't anyone mentioned that there isn't a difference between 58 and 62 anymore?

KurtHorn · October 7, 2005 1:03PM

<< 

<< Come on, most people know that with the exception of real high grade modern crap, ICG is VERY conservative. >>

I'd guess you haven't handled many ICG graded Morgans in Gem and above.

Russ, NCNE >>

I've cracked and crossed many of them. They haven't lost a point on me yet and most went up. However, and I am a PCGS Registry set holder (in Washingtons) and almost every high grade ICG Washington (MS 66, MS 67) I've had my hands on is overgraded. I have had some circ type coins that I have sent them come back rediculously, conservatively graded. Some of the more expensive ones I have cracked and re-submitted to other services. Which is primarily why I don't send stuff to ICG any longer. Some examples: 1932-D Washington ICG AU 50 sent to NGC came back AU 58. 1927-S Standing Lib ICG VG 8 crossed to ANACS VF 20. 1908-S Indian ICG VG 8 to NGC Fine 15. Rip ICG all you want, but there are areas in which they are incredibly conservative.

UncleWiggly · October 7, 2005 1:44PM

It doesn't really matter who graded it what. That's secondary to what's the most relevant thing here. Loss of prestige. It was put into a ICG holder first with fanfare. Now it has been removed and placed in a PCGS holder.

Jerry

Outhaul · March 5, 2006 8:30AM

<< Also, since the story told regarding this cent involves the coin being carried around by a congressman, does that automatically make it an AU? >>

Hey...If a chopmarked trade dollar can be considered UNC then why can't an aluminum cent that was carried around in a pocket?

Cheers,

Bob

CoastGuard · March 11, 2006 12:59AM

It just serves as a reminder that grading has some subjectivity even among professional graders. Since it is an opinion they can both be correct. The actual ICG graders working there are top-knotch. We all know their names.
Each of the four big TPG services has graded so many hundreds of thousands and millions of coins there is bound to be some error in that large a sample. I do notice the dealers that own the two largest TPG's or have a stake in their success are very loyal and defensive even to the point you will see them unfairly criticize their competition. You can see the negativity can even be somewhat devious.

How could PCGS grade the same aluminum cent 4 points higher than ICG?

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