Options
Reponse to David Hall --- Q&A Forum Questions
FrattLaw
Posts: 3,297
David -- first off let me say "thank you" for accepting and answering my questions. Obviously the 2nd question was very difficult and I respect the fact that you'll be providing an insightful and indepth answer to such after you speak to the proper people.
However, I do take issue with the answer you provided to my first question -- you kinda side-stepped it there, didn't you?
While I am pleased that you care about us little guys, you didn't answer the real call of the question. I understand you position as to collectors vs. dealers and might I add I have experienced this first hand. The first time I met you was during a met and greet where I showed you a fingerprinted proof Washington Quarter. At first you really didn't want to buy the coin back, but you eventually did and even paid me PCGS Price Guide money for the coin. Which quite surprised me. So I understand your point.
However, this question wasn't about the general policy of PCGS as to grading guaranties, it was specific to the JadeCoin situation and the guaranty of pedigrees. There are a lot of collectors/dealers looking at their slabs as you read this that might be wondering whether they really do own a coin from a famous collection. Perhaps they might also be wondering whether they should trust the label and whether they should trust PCGS or you for that matter, in regards to pedigrees.
So not to waste your time and to give your customers an answer that they deserve, please answer the following --
(1) Was the JadeCoin an actual Norweb coin?
(2) If not, then why didn't PCGS stand behind the coin and rectify their mistake when the pedigree was removed from the label and the coin returned to Dennis?
(3) And if you won't stand behind the coin and guaranty the pedigree -- why not?
(4) Shouldn't placing a pedigree on a label when it wasn't substaniated through at least 1 of the 4 criteria you previously posted be considered negligence on PCGS's part?
(5) How is this any different then grading a obvious MS66 a MS69.
I look forward to your response.
Michael
However, I do take issue with the answer you provided to my first question -- you kinda side-stepped it there, didn't you?
While I am pleased that you care about us little guys, you didn't answer the real call of the question. I understand you position as to collectors vs. dealers and might I add I have experienced this first hand. The first time I met you was during a met and greet where I showed you a fingerprinted proof Washington Quarter. At first you really didn't want to buy the coin back, but you eventually did and even paid me PCGS Price Guide money for the coin. Which quite surprised me. So I understand your point.
However, this question wasn't about the general policy of PCGS as to grading guaranties, it was specific to the JadeCoin situation and the guaranty of pedigrees. There are a lot of collectors/dealers looking at their slabs as you read this that might be wondering whether they really do own a coin from a famous collection. Perhaps they might also be wondering whether they should trust the label and whether they should trust PCGS or you for that matter, in regards to pedigrees.
So not to waste your time and to give your customers an answer that they deserve, please answer the following --
(1) Was the JadeCoin an actual Norweb coin?
(2) If not, then why didn't PCGS stand behind the coin and rectify their mistake when the pedigree was removed from the label and the coin returned to Dennis?
(3) And if you won't stand behind the coin and guaranty the pedigree -- why not?
(4) Shouldn't placing a pedigree on a label when it wasn't substaniated through at least 1 of the 4 criteria you previously posted be considered negligence on PCGS's part?
(5) How is this any different then grading a obvious MS66 a MS69.
I look forward to your response.
Michael
0
Comments
K S
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!!
Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
Byron
My first YOU SUCK on May 6 2005
<< <i>Frattlaw dont get banned or axed or what ever. I think this might be pushing into that area where it could get people a little upset.
Byron >>
Weird that someone would get banned for asking basic questions. All of us that respect PCGS and support PCGS deserve answers to these questions.
Perhaps someone has already answered the questions. If so then someone can post a link to that response.
<< <i>Frattlaw dont get banned or axed or what ever. I think this might be pushing into that area where it could get people a little upset >>
I'm not trying to. David called me out last night and asked me to post my question(s). Matter of fact, I even forgot that it was Q&A Forum night. I'm not trying to upset anyone or push things too far. But, David had said that "we," the collectors and dealers were only getting one side of the story in regards to the JadeCoin matter. My question really allowed him to propose PCGS's and his side of what occurred. However, I felt that he brushed aside the question so I reposted it.
I feel that my questions are fair and need to be addressed. Obviously, by some of the responses to this thread, others feel the same. Some members may not respond to this thread out of concern for themselves or the sheer politics of this situation, and that is fine. However, there has to be accountability.
Well, I'm off to another deposition --- I'm still curious to see these questions addressed.
Thanks,
Michael
"(4) Shouldn't placing a pedigree on a label when it wasn't substaniated through at least 1 of the 4 criteria you previously posted be considered negligence on PCGS's part? "
He at least won't attempt to answer it without consulting PCGS legal first (and they will likely tell him to tap dance or not answer it.
For all the BS that he gets, I think HRH is pretty smart.....smart enough not to get nailed in that question.
We shall see though....
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>David called me out last night and asked me to post my question(s). >>
David asked for it, he got it. This is solicited bagging, so it's cool.
Russ, NCNE
Free Trial
<< <i>(1) Was the JadeCoin an actual Norweb coin?
(2) If not, then why didn't PCGS stand behind the coin and rectify their mistake when the pedigree was removed from the label and the coin returned to Dennis?
(3) And if you won't stand behind the coin and guaranty the pedigree -- why not?
(4) Shouldn't placing a pedigree on a label when it wasn't substaniated through at least 1 of the 4 criteria you previously posted be considered negligence on PCGS's part?
(5) How is this any different then grading a obvious MS66 a MS69.
>>
<< <i>Some of you people amaze me. The read-between-the-lines answer from PCGS is "NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS", which I agree with. >>
huh? how pcgs guarantees what they slap on a slab is NONE OF OUR BUSINESS???
K S
Thanks... frat boy.
This particular case MAY NOT be our business...however...the question is not just about that case. He is asking for a response to how PCGS handles this in general.
Yes he has brought up this particular case...however the question goes beyond that.
Again I say...it is OUR business because WE ARE their business.
<< <i>anybody have a link to the original Jade problem?? >>
Thread was removed.
<< <i>Your questions are tough Michael, but I don't think David will be foolish enough to answer a question, especially publicy, where a lawyer uses the word "negligence"....do you? >>
I'm really not trying to "play" lawyer with David. That isn't my intention at all. I have been a member of this forum long enough to understand the politics of this situation. I don't have an axe to grind with PCGS, nor am I "anti-PCGS." Many of the coins I have purchased reside in PCGS plastic, and I will continue to purchase PCGS graded coins. I have and will in the future submit coins to be graded by PCGS.
There's no hidden agenda in my question. I am simply trying to get an answer to a question that I have.
Michael
<< <i>
<< <i>Your questions are tough Michael, but I don't think David will be foolish enough to answer a question, especially publicy, where a lawyer uses the word "negligence"....do you? >>
I'm really not trying to "play" lawyer with David. That isn't my intention at all. I have been a member of this forum long enough to understand the politics of this situation. I don't have an axe to grind with PCGS, nor am I "anti-PCGS." Many of the coins I have purchased reside in PCGS plastic, and I will continue to purchase PCGS graded coins. I have and will in the future submit coins to be graded by PCGS.
There's no hidden agenda in my question. I am simply trying to get an answer to a question that I have.
Michael >>
Of course, that will be up to Frattlaw and of course, allowing David enough time to respond giving that a Florida coin show is going on at the same time along with major CLCT investment conferences in New York, Boston and Philadelphia.
I wouldn't ban anybody over something like this...I just wouldn't respond to it. I might reconsider if the person continually made it a disruption or disadvantaged my business by not taking the hint.
Yes, that is what I suspect DH is saying to himself.
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
<< <i>There's no hidden agenda in my question. I am simply trying to get an answer to a question that I have. >>
By the way the rest of your post was sort of humor striking also. If you know what I mean as both boards PCGS and NGC are read.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Your questions are tough Michael, but I don't think David will be foolish enough to answer a question, especially publicy, where a lawyer uses the word "negligence"....do you? >>
I'm really not trying to "play" lawyer with David. That isn't my intention at all. I have been a member of this forum long enough to understand the politics of this situation. I don't have an axe to grind with PCGS, nor am I "anti-PCGS." Many of the coins I have purchased reside in PCGS plastic, and I will continue to purchase PCGS graded coins. I have and will in the future submit coins to be graded by PCGS.
There's no hidden agenda in my question. I am simply trying to get an answer to a question that I have.
Michael >>
After reading the two questions in the Q & A threads back to back
The outcome of the dispute between Jade coin and PCGS is not our business.
Free Trial
Michael - This is an issue with PCGS and this one customer. Let's drop it. They may treat the situation totally differertly under other circumstances.
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
I can think of a dozen reasons not to have high capacity magazines, but it's the reasons I haven't thought about that I need them.
<< <i>anybody have a link to the original Jade problem?? >>
http://www.earlyus.com/norweb.htm from my bookmark - hope i don't get banned....
<< <i>huh? how pcgs guarantees what they slap on a slab is NONE OF OUR BUSINESS???
The outcome of the dispute between Jade coin and PCGS is not our business. >>
i hope you are not serious. it's analogous to saying the outcome of the dispute between george bush & saddam hussein is not our business. IT IS. YOU ARE PAYING FOR IT!!!
K S
Forget the facts of the Jadecoin issue.....the whole handling of this very public issue has been very unprofessional. The entire history of the handling of this incident would make a great negative case study in a "Basics of Public Relations" textbook.
I continue to just be amazed at how public relations are handled at CLCT. I'm surprised a member of the CLCT board hasn't taken Hall aside and in a very friendly manner dropped him the business card of a good P.R. firm and suggested he make a phone call.
Free Trial
about other peoples problems. Especially when we may not have
the full story from all sides. Once lawers get involved in litigation,
the proper thing for someone involved, is to be silent.
Camelot
Pretty diplomatic, huh??
Thanks for your helpful post. I don't give a rat's patoot about the Jadecoin issue and don't care if I ever hear about the solution.
However, what I want to know is whether I can or should rely on any guarantee from PCGS when considering the purchase of a pedigreed PCGS coin.
If the answer is "no, there is no guaranttee and you shouldn't put any reliance on it"....then fine...I won't.
But I would appreciate a straight-forward answer.
What happens on the Jadecoin issue is nobody's business but the two parties. Answering my question would seem to be information of a public nature.
And as a seperate topic, the way I read fratboy's questions....they were about PCGS policies and not about Jadecoin. But...I could be wrong.
<< <i>what I want to know is whether I can or should rely on any guarantee from PCGS when considering the purchase of a pedigreed PCGS coin. >>
I would think that answer is pretty obvious by now.
Russ, NCNE
I think you're probably right about that. However, I bid on a PCGS pedigreed coin in the Signature Sale and suspect I was outbid because of the pedigree on the slab.
If Mr. Hall has made a definitive statement on the issue...it's slipped by me. If the answer is "no" then I think that would make news and cause the overpayment for "pedigreed" coins to decrease.
This is why I would like to hear a definitive statement from the company that is charging the public to slab the coins. It's a case of no news is worse than bad news I think.
<< <i>Dang Russ.
I think you're probably right about that. However, I bid on a PCGS pedigreed coin in the Signature Sale and suspect I was outbid because of the pedigree on the slab. q]
J of C..... I hope you aren't the Squirrel that ran that Jack Lee PCGS ms67 1938-D Walker up to over 10K!!!
It was the Andre Dawson 1839-O seated dime in an NGC MS64 holder. I wish the dad gum pedigree wasn't on there because the coin had unbelievable eye appeal and should have sold for about $1,500 less......IMHO
As for the JadeCoin issue, I'll leave it alone. I am convinced it is between JadeCoin and PCGS.
As for the guaranty as to pedigrees, David has set a 4 prong test as to how a coin would receive a pedigree. Here's his quote
"There are only four instances when we can pedigree a coin as far as I'm concerned.
1. The coin is from a famous, "name" auction and it is pictured in the catalog and the coin clearly matches the photo.
2. The coin is from a famous, "name" auction and it is in a sealed auction company flip (holder.) This doesn't happen much anymore as most auctions have certified coins.
3. The coin is from a collection or set that is in the PCGS Set Registry and the owner of the set sends the entire set in for pedigree to his collection.
4. The coin is from a famous "find" or hoard and we have specific information that the coins being pedigreed are the actual discovery coins. An example would be the gold coins from the SS Central America ship wreck."
It is my opinion that if your coin has a pedigree and it cannot meet this test, then in essence it has been misattributed. PCGS has not done it's due diligence in regards to substantiating the provenance of the coin and I would seek to have them rectify the problem and have the pedigree removed. Secondly, if you paid more for the coin solely because of that pedigree or provenance ALONE and relied on the accuracy of the PCGS's label I would seek compensation directly from PCGS. If you paid more just because it was a nicer example of that particular coin, then I would not seek redress since the provenance was not relied upon. The coin's actual condition or some other intangible was the determining factor in your desire to purchase the coin, not provenance.
It comes down to reliance and harm. Did you rely on the PCGS label and the attribution of the coin as being pedigreed? If YES then is there harm? If the coin is not truly a pedigreed coin, but is worth the money you paid for it, no harm no foul. You just happen to have a nice non-pedigreed coin. But if it is worth less, then in my opinion you are entitled to be compensated for the difference between purchase price and what the same coin is worth sans the pedigree.
The question is will PCGS pay that difference voluntarily or will you have to enforce your rights?
I doubt highly that David will answer this question, despite the JadeCoin issue since there are numerous coins in PCGS slabs that are pedigreed. Answering this question will only open a Pandora's Box, he's smarter than that.
So the real question isn't -- does PCGS guaranty their pedigrees -- sure they do -- but you may have to force them to.
At least he has given us the 4 prong test as to what's allowable.
Are you stilling willing to trust the label?
Michael
<< <i>It seems that some of us worry too much about other peoples problems. Especially when we may not have the full story from all sides. Once lawers get involved in litigation, the proper thing for someone involved, is to be silent. >>
bear what makes you think lawyers are involved? you know something we don't?
what i find puzzling is why after months of this, neither pcgs nor the jade boys have come forward & said "dudes the issue's been resolved".
is it resolved or isn't it???
K S
I remember from the thread about Jadecoin's coin (which was subsequently deleted) that there was a person who spoke saying he remembered that the coin had indeed been sold at the Norweb auction, as one of the unplated coins. Does anyone know any more details about this? If the coin was indeed a Norweb coin, shouldn't it have the pedigree re-listed on the slab? Would there even be any way to tell now, without any plates? Perhaps not.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22