Frattlaw where are you?
homerunhall
Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭
Michael,
What up dude? You complained that I never answered your questions...so I told you I'd answer any question you post on the Q & A forum. That was a week ago. I'm waiting man!
David
What up dude? You complained that I never answered your questions...so I told you I'd answer any question you post on the Q & A forum. That was a week ago. I'm waiting man!
David
0
Comments
Les
Your question is coming.
Michael
Linked below is an article addressing some of the issues in reference to the Jadecoin situation and I, as well as numerous others, are curious as to PCGS's response. As well as to your response since it appears that this article contains many statements attributed to you.
Have The Mighty Fallen?
Further, why is it your position that PCGS doesn't guaranty pedigrees? And what is the basis for such?
Michael
Here's your own wording --
PCGS's turnaround guarantee assures you that PCGS will have grades available in the number of business days specified. For example, for Walkthrough (2 day), Special Express (7 day), Regular (15 day), PCGS will have grades available the following number of days after the day we receive your order. The number of days it takes for the delivery agency (U.S. Registered Mail) to return graded coins to the submitter is not included in the number of days allotted to PCGS's turnaround guarantee. Note: Available services and turnaround times are subject to change. Days during which PCGS is attending a show or hosting a dealer invitational are not considered business days for the purpose of calculating guaranteed turnaround times.
What is the guaranty exactly? What is the remedy if the coin(s) are not graded in the specified time allotment. What if that "free submission" grading coupon is not graded in the time allotment? Is that guaranteed as well?
How long does it take to enter a coin once received into the PCGS database so the clock can begin ticking? What exact days does PCGS attend a show? Is the day before and after the show also considered part of the show since they are travel days. How often does PCGS have invitationals?
Why has the guaranty been applied capriciously?
Michael
I'm curious as to your responses. I tried to remain civil and ask poignant questions that others might feel uncomfortable asking, but truly do need to be answered.
Honestly, there is nothing mean spirited in my questions. I hope you have the fortitude to answer them. Escpecially the first, since the article is rather scathing. It can be your chance to set the record. As for the 2nd I think your customer's deserve to know what exactly the guaranty means and how it is applied.
Thanks,
Michael
The Ludlow Brilliant Collection (1938-64)
(Hint, hint!) lol
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>(Hint, hint!) lol >>
Maybe he and frattlaw are out having dinner together tonight.
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Ken
This makes sense...open QC should be the given for all reputable grading companies. Enron & Worldcom woke up many people.
RR "....Trust but Verify...." Mr. Hall could initiate this himself, here and now and keep PCGS at the top well into the future.
Editted for put wrong company as example. sorry good Raytheon people
islemangu@yahoo.com
<< <i>How many times does this stuff need to be answered or does it need to be answered? I just wonder what good this constant hashing over of a mistake, so it seems, does for the Hobby ? As far as submission time thats simple. Do not submit to PCGS if you are not happy with the time it takes or their grades that are given out.
Ken >>
It will last until those who are holding pedgreed coins feel comfortable that they are holding the real thing. (which does not include me)
islemangu@yahoo.com
In truth, it only affected a few people involved in a financial sense and frankly I don't think it will ever be addressed given the nature of the average person to forget and move on in our busy lives.
It will be back-burnered till it's just a bad memory. The people on this board, however, aren't quite as shallow as most of the public and it won't go away nearly as fast as Mr. Hall likely hopes it will.
The issue that affects me and everyone on this board are grading times. I have no doubt that PCGS is moving as fast as they can, but to make public promises that are clearly not being met is indeed causing damage to both PCGS and those of us who financially support them.
Making more promises regarding turnaround times that are nowhere near reality just further damages the credibility of those making them.
Again, the people on this board are far more intelligent than the average person out there and we would appreciate honesty and integrity even if the answer isn't what we'd all like to hear.
I recently got back an economy submission at 113 calendar days, probably not the record, but please. I have a few others in now that are at around 45 days.
If you tell me 45 days up front, I'll make a decision on where to go with my coins. In many cases I'd still go PCGS because that is the slab I want, but I can honestly say that I've submited over two dozen accross the street(s) simply due to the time frame and the fact that there is in reality no guarantee of any amount of time with PCGS economy and no recourse for all practical purposes.
That two dozen submissions would have gone to PCGS If I had any sense of getting them back in a reasonable amount of time. I've gotten some back in 21 days, 29 days and 31 days. Some of those have been turned and new purchases made in the time that I would still be waiting for a return from my first choice, PCGS.
Turnaround times must be addressed and realistic time frames must be announced and met. This is the biggest threat to PCGS in remaining number one.
I truly enjoy this board and I hope this isn't my last post. There is a difference between constructive criticism and just (censored), but sadly, I've seen people banned for one or the other or both.
There, my 3 cents is spent. Honesty really is the best policy and that's my honest opinion, I think is should be PCGS' as well. Thanks for your time in wading through this one.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>The people on this board, however, aren't quite as shallow as most of the public and it won't go away nearly as fast as Mr. Hall likely hopes it will. >>
i doubt it. most of the board members have totally forgotten the jadecoin/norweb fiasco. don't you remember how SOOOOO many of the members here posted to the (banned) monster thread? those same members just blithely scoot along & are still out there posting about how wonderful plastic is, blah blah blah. the fact is, most members ARE SHALLOW. the norweb pedigree disaster is forgotten history.
as for the article that frattlaw linked to, #1 the jade boys removed the link from their website & the article is gone, so that tells me they got paid off to keep quiet. the issue's OVER #2, the author himself claims the article is written based on hearsay. does that mean the information he provided isn't even 1st hand??? if that's true, where's this "information" coming from? #3 there are alleged quotes in the article of mr. hall - any proof hall actually said those things?
bottom line is, the norweb hibernia was a quick flash in the pan. everyone's forgotten about, especially members of this forum
K S
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
Michael, The whole "Jade Coin" thing is pretty interesting for the following reasons...
1. People always assume the worst and always believe everything they read. A lot of statements being made (and I haven't seen every statement, but a lot of it has been shown to me) are not coming from Jade Coin principles and none of the statements being made are coming from PCGS. Yet most people seem to believe the story as it is told by third parties. I believe that in your profession you would call a lot of this hearsay. But I'm fascinated that so many people take virtually everything that is being said by third parties as a cold hard fact.
-> actually the story was told 1st-hand - at least 1 side was. the jade boys were party to the story, & they are the 1's who told it.
2. PCGS has spent millions of dollars under the terms of its grading guarantee...millions! We buy back coins every month. If we make a mistake we take care of it...period, end of story. And as far as I know there is only one other grading service that has a grading guarantee. If you have a mis-attributed coin, or a counterfeit, or a grading problem, or a coin that turns in the holder, and it's from another grading service, how much of your loss will that grading service cover. With the exception of PCGS and one other service, I believe you get zilch from the other guys. It's incredible that after taking care of so many people...after standing behind our service for 18 years and making sure that we were the ones who paid for our mistakes, a few people claim we didn't take care of one situation and others scream "foul" without even the slightest idea of the true facts.
-> millions? there have been that many mistakes???
-> actually 4 co's offer $ back guarantees that i know of, pcgs, ngc, icg, anacs
I have no idea what these people are trying to accomplish with all this stuff that's appearing on the message boards, but I can assure you that these people do not care about you and your coins.
I do not want to spend a lot of time on this because there are much more important things to do...like grading your coins. However, you asked and I told you I'd answer your questions. So I will give you one specific example of one of the outright lies and I'll explain it in detail.
One of these articles or whatever you call them claims that I told someone something to the effect that "I don't care about the little guys." That is simply total and complete bs because that is exactly the opposite of what I think and how PCGS operates.
Here's how I/we feel about the little guy/big guy issue. There are two types of ways we view customers. First...we think of customers as either dealers or collectors. Second, we think of customers as either big submitters or little submitters. The fact is that I/we cut more slack with collectors than dealers and we are more gentle with small customers than big customers. That's the fact.
I'll give you two examples. When we buy back coins under the terms of our guarantee, we pay collectors relatively more than we pay dealers. We are obligated to pay market value, which we have sole discretion to determine. So dealers get the wholesale price, period, end of story...and I usually overpay collectors a little. Seond example, if someone has a question about a coin's grade, i.e. if someone wonders why their coin did not grade higher, and they are a small and/or relatively new customer, I/we will go out of our way to tell the customer to send the coin in for a complimentary review. I do this even though I know that it is almost 100% that the PCGS grade is right and the customer just doesn't have the eye to know the difference. Big customers know better than to ask for a free review because they know I'm not going to do anything for them in terms of a second look unless they have a really good story. I/we try to help all of our customers, big or small, dealers or collectors, but I/we are definitely gentle on the little guys.
-> mr. hall, it would scare the he11 out of me that pcgs has "sole discretion to determine" market value. jmho
Now, does that sound like I/we don't care about the little guy?
The fact is that we started PCGS to take care of the little guy...to help those who had previously been at the mercy of the big pros.
That's all I'm going to say about Jade Coin or any other customer dispute. Believe what you want but we take care of our customers and we make good on our mistakes. It's the way we've done business for 18 years and it's one of the major reasons why we have remained the market leader for nearly two decades. We have nothing to gain by treating any coin or customer with anything less than the greatest respect.
David