stolen coin registry ...updated idea...

coinpage · November 4, 2003 1:33AM

I was thinking of implementing a Stolen Coin Registry on my website. It would allow users to input data about the coin, the theft, which law enforcement to contact, etc.. It would also allow others to search by cert # amoung other criteria.

Do anyone think this is a good idea? Would anyone use it before they bought coins?

--------------------------- New Idea ---------------------------------------------------

Hosting a stolen coin registry on my site seems to be more complicated than I originally thought.
How about this idea. Let's use the search engines to create a psuedo stolen coin database. I can provide a template for an HTML page that would format Meta Tags, standard label descriptors etc. The person who had their coins stolen could create a 'standard' html page using this template. They would then copy the html and host it on their own site.
They would be responsible for getting their page indexed with the search engines.

Any user wanting to check for stolen coins would then go to a search engine like google and search on a standard phrase like "stolen coin registry:" to get a list right off of the search engine.

Specific coins could be searched like this "stolen coin registry: PCGS123456789"

As a part of the 'standard' html page I can format a search box directly into google, (or whoever) to search the psuedo registry. Therefore one would be able to search from any of the 'standard' pages.

This approach would remove me from any liability since I am only providing an HTML template to use.

mgoodm3 · November 4, 2003 2:46AM

i think there could be liability issues. People put misinformation on the list and things could get messy.

XpipedreamR · November 4, 2003 2:50AM

It seems like a good concept in general. I think you would have to get all the details ironed out because it would probably be cumbersome to use. For example, I've bought about 20 coins in the past week and it would be a pain to get all the numbers before purchase, and then check to make sure they're not stolen before purchase. I probably wouldn't bother for low value coins.

A more sophisticated thief or his confederates dealing in illicit high value coins would probably know to just take the coins out and resubmit them, and then it's a essentially a new coin unless it is unique or has some other distinguishing characteristics.

Conder101 · November 4, 2003 3:01AM

<< i think there could be liability issues. People put misinformation on the list and things could get messy. >>

Easy way around that is to require a copy of the police report with the submission in order to have the coins listed on the site.

I'm not sure if it would help, but it might and it sure wouldn't hurt. The only thing I would worry about is if recovered coins aren't reported so they can be removed from the listings. I would think that submitters of lists would have to be queried on a regular basis to see if any of the coins had been recovered.

coinpage · November 4, 2003 3:05AM

<< i think there could be liability issues >>

what issues? The registry would just be a place to report stolen coins. Maybe a filing a police report would be a requirement to filing on the database.

coinpage · November 4, 2003 3:10AM

Conder101,

I think that a timed listing maybe 3 months, would be appropriate. Anyone placing a listing would have to renew it.

mgoodm3 · November 4, 2003 3:16AM

I think liability could take the form of bad or old information about a coin. A dealer legitimately has a coin that is lsted as stolen and loses business because of that.

coinpage · November 4, 2003 3:35AM

mgoodm3

<< A dealer legitimately has a coin that is lsted as stolen and loses business because of that. >>

Interesting point, the only way a dealer could legitimately sell a stolen coin is if the coin was returned to the rightful owner and then the owner sold the coin. In other words, the coin was no longer stolen & the database was out of date.

I guess I would have to put in disclaimers about the accuracy of the listings as well as an agreement that the poster would remove any listings of recovered coins.

mgoodm3 · November 4, 2003 3:36AM

If you do this, do your homework. Talk to a lawyer about it first. There are a few around here that could probably help.

MICHAELDIXON · November 4, 2003 4:44AM

For coins lost in the mail, an insurance claim form would suffice.

ohbaby · November 4, 2003 4:52AM

Good idea!

Everything you do today has a "liability". Don't let that dissuade you.

Having a pit bull has liabilities. Having a business. Being a little league umpire. Sitting on the board of a non profit. Having a swimming pool has liabilities. Let those nice Jehovah Witnesses into your home? You guessed it, there is a liability. There are enough unemployed and underemployed lawyers running around you can be sued for anything and by anyone.

A police report is a good start and a disclaimer.

Barry · November 4, 2003 5:29AM

To tie this in to the recent ANA thread, seems to me this is the kind of thing the ANA should do.

coinpage · November 4, 2003 5:39AM

Where's that ANA thread?

FrattLaw · November 4, 2003 8:26AM

<< There are enough unemployed and underemployed lawyers running around you can be sued for anything and by anyone. >>

Send them to California I can't find any here that will work for a reasonable salary. They all want MOON money!

And yes, you can be sued for anything. I am actually contacting the Association of Very Lazy Attorneys and letting them know of ohbaby's libelous comments. They prefer to be known as Billable Hourly Challenged Attorneys, they are actually protected by the ADA. I'm sure you'll be receiving a complaint and summons shortly.

And as for the idea, I'm not really seeing the liability here. Are you as the site's owner certifying that every coin posted is stolen, or are you just giving the world a large internet message board to say "hey my coin is stolen, return it if you happen to find it"?

I remember growing up back in NJ and in my town was an ACME grocery store. At this ACME, they had a Community Bulletin Board. People would put up notices of garage sales, lost dogs/cats and the occassional help wanted ad. Now I might be misunderstanding the idea here, but isn't that really the idea here? Do you think ACME had any liability in regards to their Bulletin Board.

Could I sue ACME if my dog showed up as being lost on the Board even though he wasn't? Hmmmm.... I don't think so, well maybe, I supposed if I had seen the ad, and not realized that Lucky was at home safe and sound and I believed him to be lost, then perhaps I might have suffered some emotional distress in the time between driving from ACME to my home and realized Lucky was okay. I doubt if I could find even an unemployed or underemployed lawyer to take my case, though he could probably file a claim for Negligent Infliction of Emotional Distress, of course with a claim for my wife for Lack of Consortium.

I really need more info before I can really give any sound advice.

Michael

SarasotaFrank · November 4, 2003 8:46AM

<< I remember growing up back in NJ and in my town was an ACME grocery store.

Michael >>

I think I used to go there on Friday afternoon to help my Mom with the weekly grocery shopping - near the Police Department?

Barry · November 4, 2003 8:47AM

<< Where's that ANA thread? >>

I searched for it, but can't find it. Maybe it was pulled, though I can't imagine why. It was just about why join (or not join) the ANA.

dollardude · November 4, 2003 10:02AM

I started the ANA thread. I'm sorry it was pulled.

I would look into doing a deal with PCGS where you use their database registration information to expand on it and link to it.

nolimitz · November 4, 2003 11:09AM

What happens if a dealer, buys a coin that is stolen and sells it the same day or next witout checking to see if it is stolen?
Then it is held for x# yrs/months and resold?
This happened to me with a rifle I bought from a legit dealer. It came back as stolen from Wa state several yrs before I ended up selling it.
You want to talk hassles!!!

coinpage · November 4, 2003 1:41PM

I'll post a more detailed idea later, but here's my current thoughts

- do not certify that coins listed on the site are indeed stolen but:
- require a police report/case number or insurance claim/claim # in order to post items
- have listings which expire (possibly 3 months)
- have appropriate disclaimer about computer/data errors
- have aggreement with poster to be notified of recovered coins
- do not store any personal information about poster except email
- do not limit database into any one grading service

? undecided whether to require a slab cert/serial# (disallow raw coins)

Conder101 · November 4, 2003 9:05PM

To include raw coins would be a little risky since they more difficult to identify with certainty. You would need a GOOD large image of the coin and a DETAILED description of the coin specificly identfying all identifying feaures. Ideally mapping out contact/bag marks. Anything less runs a good risk of legaly owned coins being misidentified as stolen causing real problems.

ms70 · November 4, 2003 9:16PM

I came up with this idea several months ago. I posted it in the Q&A forum but I can't find it. David Hall posted that he liked the idea and was
going to research it & try to get something together.

coinpage · November 5, 2003 3:28AM

ms70,

If PCGS provided a stolen coin registry, would they include slabs from other grading companies? I don't see how that would be in their interest. This service is best performed outside any one grading company. The ANA is probably one of the best candidates, but I ain't waiting for them.

coinpage · November 9, 2003 9:32AM

I have given this idea some thought in the last couple of days. It seems to me that if a registry like this existed:

1) Persons who lost or had coins stolen would have a good incentive to use the site but

2) there would little or no incentive for dealers to use this site,
because the site could not prove that a coin is not stolen and
if a coin was found to be stolen, it creates a hassle for the one interested in buying the coin.

Conder101 · November 9, 2003 4:39PM

Sure there is an insentive for a dealer to use the site. Stolen coin turns up and they start tracing it back, if you were a dealer how would you answer the police when they come in and ask why you bought a coin that was listed as stolen on a national registry? You're now under suspicion of fencing stolen goods! As far as creating a hassle, I don't mind creating a bit of a hassle for someone buying or selling a coin listed as stolen

LAWMAN · November 10, 2003 4:54AM

Generally speaking, at least in California, the host of a board or website has an immunity from liability of the sort being discussed (ie, defamation -- libel, slander as the public calls it). A recent decision of the 9th Circuit Federal Court of appeals clobbering a friend of mine ju8st re-affirmed that. But, if you go ahead and do it, the disclaimers should be drafted by an attorney.

topstuf · November 10, 2003 5:37AM

Another good idea would be to put worms in cans.

Then OPEN them.

Anyone who would involve themselves in this would spend a lifetime in court on one side or the other.

"I see, Mr. Gooddeed, and precisely how does your website gather information?"

Oh BABY!

ms70 · November 10, 2003 5:55AM

I think it's a great idea. There's a lot of stolen slabs out there & no one else is doing anything about it. At Parsippany last
weekend a dealer told me that another dealer there had two coins taken during a busy moment. Will they end up on eBay?
Who knows? But at least a stolen coin registry is something. It might not be perfect but it's something.

It's sole function should be to notify the person making the inquiry that it has been reported stolen and there is a police report
documenting this. In other words it's simply connecting you with the police report. That's all. How the matter is pursued is up
to the parties involved and governed by federal, state, or local law depending on the situation.

If someone in the coin hobby or coin business doesn't do something, nobody else will.

topstuf · November 10, 2003 10:02AM

Yeah sure. Crooks ALWAYS fence the coins while they're still in the slab.

And I can GUARANTEE you that the defendant's (crook's) lawyer will be SURE to add you to the witness list just to question you on your source.

ms70 · November 10, 2003 10:50AM

Ummmm.... The source being an official police report? So what if you have to testify that you discovered the coin was stolen
via an internet registry and CONFIRMED it with the police? Nobody will care that you found out from a registry.

Do you have some bigger & better idea?

topstuf · November 11, 2003 3:30AM

Ummmmmm.....yep. Maybe not bigger though.

A safe deposit box.

Bear in mind that the owner of said site will not be on the PHONE to tell all about it. He will get to ATTEND THE TRIAL.

That's always fun.

coinpage · November 11, 2003 5:45AM

Hosting a stolen coin registry on my site seems to be more complicated than I originally thought.
How about this idea. Let's use the search engines to create a psuedo stolen coin database. I can provide a template for an HTML page that would format Meta Tags, standard label descriptors etc. The person who had their coins stolen could create a 'standard' html page using this template. They would then copy the html and host it on their own site.
They would be responsible for getting their page indexed with the search engines.

Any user wanting to check for stolen coins would then go to a search engine like google and search on a standard phrase like "stolen coin registry:" to get a list right off of the search engine.

Specific coins could be searched like this "stolen coin registry

CGS123456789"

As a part of the 'standard' html page I can format a search box directly into google, (or whoever) to search the psuedo registry. Therefore one would be able to search from any of the 'standard' pages.

This approach would remove me from any liability since I am only providing an HTML template to use.

topstuf · November 12, 2003 3:03AM

Forget "LIABILITY."

Think "shenanigans."

How long til the NUTS on ebay begin copying slab numbers and post to the site?

Not even the COPS will post stolen items.

I had a PAWN SHOP. Retired this January.

We had people who SOLD their stuff report it STOLEN. One of my good customers had property confiscated by the police based on a POLICE REPORT.

He immediately called me to see why I would sell him stolen property.

I brought up the computer and the person who SOLD the property to me was the one who reported it STOLEN to the police.

The cops LOST the property somehow. MY customer was O-U-T !!!!

Plainly and simply: Many people are NUTS!!!! They LOSE things and think they're stolen.

I'm not aware of ONE stolen item list available to anyone other than police. Maybe there is one that I am not aware of.

It is a CAN OF WORMS!!!

Even the NRA stopped printing stolen guns several years ago.

Let the COPS be the COPS!

Using a database like this would cause problems that you can't even imagine.

You all know what "the public" is like. Who among you is brave enough or has enough hubris to think that you can anticipate all the stuff "the public" can manage to do?

End of my input on this.

stolen coin registry ...updated idea...

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