IN REPLY TO The truth about the toned coin market

fountainheadgold · October 25, 2003 3:40PM

Here is a very interesting site which is very imformative and may help to shift the balance in favor of tone lovers. be sure to read 2 articles on toned coins

fountainheadgold · October 25, 2003 3:43PM

Sorry here is link http://www.ivyleaguecoin.com/pages/1/index.htm

cladking · October 25, 2003 3:56PM

link

I think this is what you're looking for.

DHeath · October 25, 2003 3:58PM

Tom's site is a worthwhile stop. I miss his posts here, but still enjoy them across the street.

fountainheadgold · October 25, 2003 4:08PM

Thank you Cladking for the linkage

Iwog · October 25, 2003 6:22PM

I respect Tom, and much of this article is correct, but some of the information is dead wrong.

Toning, however, is not a physical entity that has mass... This statment is fundamentally flawed. All toning is a physical entity with mass. Silver oxidation does NOT inhibit additional toning (I have no idea where he got this from, if anything existing toning will speed up the process), and silver sulfide doesn't bond with silver metal very well. This is why black tarnish comes off when you rub it, and it's why you often see fingerprints on toned coins.

ALL toning is the destruction of silver metal, and the formation of silver ions. No exceptions.

He calls this a hot issue, but he doesn't specifically state WHY it's a hot issue. No one likes to have their brand new car accused of rust problems, however that's exactly the issue here.

LucyBop · October 25, 2003 8:44PM

<< <i>. With toning we do not see the destruction of the metal, rather, the oxidation forms a skin or patina on the metal that acts to protect the underlying surface and actually inhibits further chemical reaction. >>

This was taken from Toms site and seems to be one of the things Iwogie is refering to.....
Here are my thoughts on this, as a Intel Engineer that spent 17 years of her life having to understand, develope critical quality oxides
for Microprocessors.

When a oxide grows it will consume some of the layer it is growing onto, this is why semiconductor companys grow sacrificial oxides
which are then removed via a HF dip prior to critical oxide growth. You then wind up with a super clean surface for the new quality oxide
growth. So by saying that I believe that some of the Silver surface is consumed during the intial growth, but I am talking consumption in
the angstroms that isnt visable to the human eye. I agree that this intial oxide growth acts as a protective layer so to speak. As a
oxide grows its rate of growth will decrease because now you have a chemical trying to react with the Silver surface through a oxide
that has already grown, and oxide does not like to grow on top of its self.

Why then do we see some coins toned black and others not so much? Let me speak for the Franklin series, the 1955 Frankie pulled from mint sets is notorious for being black road tar ugly. Yet in 56, 57 and 58 one can find some wondeful rainbowed appealing coins. So why is this? I suspect that the mint set cardboard holders and the paper wrapping was extremely rich in sulphur, more so then what was used in the later dates.
This would cause a quicker and longer reaction resulting in oxide growth to the point of these black and ugly eyesores. Another possibility is what did the mint do this year as far as rinses or any other chemicals that thy may have put on the Frankies that would figure into
the chemical reaction equation, in fact, this could explain why certian years in all series seem to tone better, I don't know.

EvilMCT · October 25, 2003 10:07PM

Let's see, as far as toning thread's this week this is thread number . . .? No wonder people keep leaving the boards. You like toning or you don't, who cares? To each his own.

Ken

edited for punctuation

mgoodm3 · October 26, 2003 12:43AM

the article is interesting, but flawed in a few ways as pointed out. I had always figured that the colors seen in toning were related to thin film interactions with light. I had just never heard anybody else say that. It's the same process by which bubbles have a rainbow color pattern.

1jester · October 26, 2003 12:46AM

Interesting insights, Lucy!

wingedliberty · October 26, 2003 1:19AM

The only thing we can be certain of when it comes to Iwog's first thread in conjuction with Fountain's thread is as follows:

1. Iwog prefers white coins over toned coins.
2. There are people who prefer toned coins over white coins.
3. There are people like Iwog who prefer white coins over toned coins.
4. There are people like me who love both.
5. People will always struggle to tell the difference between AT and NT.
6. There are putrid looking white coins as there are putrid looking toned coins.
7. There are putrid looking toned coins as there are putrid looking white coins.
8. There are very pretty coins in both toned and white categories.
9. There will always be a market for attractive coins.
10. There will always be threads like this one.

These are the 10 things that I can take to the bank so far.
Enjoy the hobby.

puff · October 26, 2003 1:19AM

<< <i>

<< <i>. With toning we do not see the destruction of the metal, rather, the oxidation forms a skin or patina on the metal that acts to protect the underlying surface and actually inhibits further chemical reaction. >>

This was taken from Toms site and seems to be one of the things Iwogie is refering to.....
Here are my thoughts on this, as a Intel Engineer that spent 17 years of her life having to understand, develope critical quality oxides
for Microprocessors.

When a oxide grows it will consume some of the layer it is growing onto, this is why semiconductor companys grow sacrificial oxides
which are then removed via a HF dip prior to critical oxide growth. You then wind up with a super clean surface for the new quality oxide
growth. So by saying that I believe that some of the Silver surface is consumed during the intial growth, but I am talking consumption in
the angstroms that isnt visable to the human eye. I agree that this intial oxide growth acts as a protective layer so to speak. As a
oxide grows its rate of growth will decrease because now you have a chemical trying to react with the Silver surface through a oxide
that has already grown, and oxide does not like to grow on top of its self.

Why then do we see some coins toned black and others not so much? Let me speak for the Franklin series, the 1955 Frankie pulled from mint sets is notorious for being black road tar ugly. Yet in 56, 57 and 58 one can find some wondeful rainbowed appealing coins. So why is this? I suspect that the mint set cardboard holders and the paper wrapping was extremely rich in sulphur, more so then what was used in the later dates.
This would cause a quicker and longer reaction resulting in oxide growth to the point of these black and ugly eyesores. Another possibility is what did the mint do this year as far as rinses or any other chemicals that thy may have put on the Frankies that would figure into
the chemical reaction equation, in fact, this could explain why certian years in all series seem to tone better, I don't know. >>

You go Hepkitty girl!!!

coinguy1 · October 26, 2003 1:26AM

Brian, I think you just about nailed it and you didn't even need / take 100+ threads or 10,000+ posts.

Please save your post, for what I'm sure will be, much needed, future reference.

wingedliberty · October 26, 2003 1:32AM

Thanks Mark:
I like to break things down to their fundamentals. , plus I was starting to get dizzy from this.

Tonekiller · October 26, 2003 1:36AM

<< <i>The only thing we can be certain of when it comes to Iwog's first thread in conjuction with Fountain's thread is as follows:

1. Iwog prefers white coins over toned coins.
2. There are people who prefer toned coins over white coins.
3. There are people like Iwog who prefer white coins over toned coins.
4. There are people like me who love both.
5. People will always struggle to tell the difference between AT and NT.
6. There are putrid looking white coins as there are putrid looking toned coins.
7. There are putrid looking toned coins as there are putrid looking white coins.
8. There are very pretty coins in both toned and white categories.
9. There will always be a market for attractive coins.
10. There will always be threads like this one.

These are the 10 things that I can take to the bank so far.
Enjoy the hobby. >>

Yes, Some Truth!

mgoodm3 · October 26, 2003 1:41AM

Toning is a topic that is very Black and White around here.

LucyBop · October 26, 2003 1:50AM

I use to love Claus's sig pic, it was a toned Frankie and in bold letters:

Young Man, I don't like your tone!

IN REPLY TO The truth about the toned coin market

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