Did the Doctor get a bad coin slabbed or did the Collector get a good coin bagged or what's the diff

Dog97 · July 28, 2003 2:07PM

Here are 2 1904-Os which look very much alike. The nice pictures are from board members "coppercoins" and a closed auction by "mrd." Both coins were recent submittals to PCGS & one was slabbed as good & one was bagged for artificial color. Both have nearly the same color & tone pattern, close enough to look like they came from the same source. The question is, are they both AT, or are they both natural, or are they both properly graded?
The AT one was going to be used on a website to identify artificial toning until it was pointed out that it looked a lot like what was in a PCGS holder.
Did PCGS miss the boat here or we missing the obvious? Any comments on this toning?

KlectorKid · July 28, 2003 2:12PM

I agree with you on the fact they look very similar. Was #2 the one that was bagged? They very likely could have both been AT and have came from the same place. Its a tough call.

Louis · July 28, 2003 2:12PM

Was it the second one that got bagged?

Placid · July 28, 2003 2:14PM

The one in the slab got slabbed

Louis · July 28, 2003 2:16PM

I guess I have tunnel vision.

FrattLaw · July 28, 2003 2:20PM

Now I know we are doing this from pics.....with that said,

The blues are coin 1 appear different even from the obverse to the reverse. It might be lighting, but thet do look to be different shades and intensity of the same color.

Whereas, the blues on coin 2 seem to be even as to the reverse and obverse.

Is it possible the coin 1 was ATed only on 1 side to increase its value. Perhaps this is what threw PCGS on coin #1 while #2 got slabbed.

This doesn't mean that coin 2 is NT, it very well could be AT too, but the only major difference I see between the two are the differences in blue/indigo.

Where's GSAGUY when you need him, oh yeah, I forgot it's his BDay isn't it?

Michael

DHeath · July 28, 2003 2:24PM

While the reverse of #2 is more obvious, I see the similarity you're pointing out. Good question. The red on obverse #1 in the blue field at 8:00 would worry me. Maybe it's natural, but I'm not smart enough about that kind of toning to think it is.

K6AZ · July 28, 2003 2:26PM

The top image is NT, the bottom is AT.

gsaguy · July 28, 2003 2:36PM

I'm with K6AZ on this one....the one that got bagged (top) actually looks better than the bottom one in a PCGS holder IMHO.

Of course, here again we're looking at scans....two dimensional images of an item that really needs to be examined in three dimensions. It's possible that rotated under light, either of these coins might look quite different.

GSAGUY

Edited to add: Frattlaw, it's not uncommon for album toned pieces (which most target toned pieces are) to have different shades of the same color on each side. Remember, gravity affects the accumulation of sulfur molecules on the coin's surface so the reverse (typically down in the holder) will often tone differently than the obverse.

cherrypickincoin · July 28, 2003 2:38PM

Wait I'm confused. So the top one, the NT one, got bagged and the AT one got holdered?

MacCrimmon · July 28, 2003 2:40PM

The top coin looks very natural.....blues have the right depth. Coin #2 looks like a definite funky AT....blues are not right, at least these were shot under the same lighting with no Photoshop "magic".

numonebuyer · July 28, 2003 2:40PM

They both look AT to me. I would not buy either. The reverse on coin #1 looks better (if I can use that word) than the reverse on coin #2. The obverses on both coins look bad.

Numonebuyer

stman · July 28, 2003 2:41PM

I think you would need the same person to image both coins to get a better read on these. Both people doing the images tilt a certain way or hit it with different light and you have two different shades of blue. JMO.

Edit to add... I don't like the looks of the patterns on either one. But if I had to chose, I would go with #1 as closer to NT. Mainly because of the different shade of color going from obv to rev.

#2 having almost a mirror image obv to rev with the same shade of blue would make me put the brakes on it.

DCAMFranklin · July 28, 2003 2:47PM

<< Wait I'm confused. So the top one, the NT one, got bagged and the AT one got holdered? >>

Too funny!!

The top coin was in FrattLaw's thread about the AT website. The bottom coin is "market acceptable" and has been holdered.

ohbaby · July 28, 2003 2:54PM

They both scream AT, especially #2. #1 is a good AT though.

FrattLaw · July 28, 2003 3:08PM

<< Edited to add: Frattlaw, it's not uncommon for album toned pieces (which most target toned pieces are) to have different shades of the same color on each side. Remember, gravity affects the accumulation of sulfur molecules on the coin's surface so the reverse (typically down in the holder) will often tone differently than the obverse. >>

Thanks GSAGUY, I've never even considered that. Gotta love the amount of knowledge on this Board!

Michael

Dog97 · July 28, 2003 6:58PM

Sorry bout the top & bottom pictures not being uniform but that's the best I could do for comparison. That's what the average collector will run into when he sees a coin on the internet then checks the site to cross reference it to known examples of AT coins.
I don't think the varying shades of blue between the top & bottom picture is the issue here though. I think the answer will lie in the basic tone pattern itself.
Personally, I don't have a problem with the color of the blue in any of the 4 pictures of the 2 04-O's @ the top of the thread. It's the AMOUNT of the blue that I have my problem with.

I've provided several pictures below of a holdered album toned Morgan to reference back to.
Notice the blue color is the same with a dark band of reddish purple where it ends on all 3 coins.
Easy to explain; the chemical fumes from the cardboard holder makes the silver turn blue until it's far enough away that it no longer reacts.
This tells me that the chemical fumes reacting with the 2 04-O's were extremely strong and toned a larger area of the coin, almost the complete coin in the holder.
No big deal, a lot of Wyatt Raymond holders do the same thing. (I provided a pict below)
BUT as you can see, WR tones dark & thicker over the years. Much darker than the 04-O's did. Had the time been shorter or the chemicals weaker it would look much like the 1887 below.
It looks like the 04-O's were exposed to stronger fumes for a much shorter period of time, or unnaturally accelerated toning.
Notice too the fingerprints on the holdered coin; it's almost solid fingerprints from UNIM to 1904; same thing with the left side of the rev. You can't see them well due to the 50kb size limit on the board but in the original pictures you can see them clearly. Fingerprints on a toned coin are usually white where the oil from the ridges acted as a protective covering preventing toning. This same oil also slightly etches the surface of the coin so that if it's dipped or cleaned THEN toned, the ridgelines from the fingerprints tone DARKER than the rest of the surfaces. This really doesn't prove anything one way or the other, other than the coin has been messed with @ 1 time or another, which is a strike against it. A coin could have been dipped 30 years ago & toned for the last 25 in an album but it certainly precludes "original" surfaces doesn't it? LOL
I find both 04-O's to be questionable with the one with the mismatched obv & rev color and the irregular toned peripheral being less appealing and more adapt for rejection than the holdered one, which has a more appealing well-matched color and concentric circular pattern.
Course all that was IMO and if anybody wants to refute or confirm any of it feel free to do so as we are all interested in this "AT" coin that looks like a "NT" one, or vice versa. Our main concern is providing correct information and the listing of a possibly NT example of coin as AT on the site is defeating our purpose and doing a disservice rather than a service to the hobby.
We realize that toning is a highly subjective & controversial subject and if no concrete facts can be established one way or the other then this coin simply won't be used on the CoinReports site.

TYPICAL ALBUM TONE

TYPICAL WYATT RAYMOND TONE

jbsteven · July 28, 2003 8:09PM

I owned BOTH of these coins. I found both at a shop in Houston and sent them into PCGS for grading. The one that got bagged has a funky blue on the obverse but the reverse is the EXACT same color as the one that got slabbed.

I am on my way to the ANA this morning but can comment a little more tonight. here is the original submission

1 90049972 1825 50C Cleaning
2 90049973 1910 10C Cleaning
3 90049974 1941-S 10C MS66FB
4 90049975 1881-S S$1 MS66
5 90049976 1885-O S$1 MS63
6 90049977 1886 S$1 MS65
7 90049978 1888 S$1 MS65
8 90049979 1881-O S$1 Cleaning
9 90049980 1883-O S$1 MS64
10 90049981 1887 S$1 MS63
11 90049982 1904-O S$1 Artificial Color
12 90049983 1904-O S$1 MS62
13 90049984 1884-O S$1 MS64
14 90049985 1886 S$1 MS65
15 90049986 1883-O S$1 MS64
16 90049987 1904-O S$1 MS64
17 90049988 1889 S$1 MS64
18 90049989 2002-P 50C MS65
19 90049990 2002-D 50C MS65

Date Received: 01/16/2003
Date Shipped: 03/21/2003

dorkkarl · July 28, 2003 10:43PM

c'mon guys!

NEITHER coin is n-t (naturally-toned). however, that said, coin #1 is m-u (mkt-UNacceptable), #2 is m-a (mkt-acceptable). why?

coin #1 is the work of a well-known coin-dr. MANY MANY MANY of his coins get into slabs, despite those who don't want to believe it (are you listening dragon?). he is able to reproduce valid colors EXACTLY.

but i told you before, the actual color on the coin is NOT RELEVANT (at least in this case), it is the pattern of toning that gives coin #1 away.

i will also say this, you can tell coin #1 is m-u instantly, w/out needing to compare against "accepted" coins. that bogus pattern of tone would (should?) NEVER fool anyone.

K S

dorkkarl · July 28, 2003 10:46PM

btw, coin#1 was no doubt a flub by our friendly coin-dr. normally, he does not mess up to that extent, & his coin would easily get into plastic holders

K S

FrattLaw · July 28, 2003 11:41PM

Okay, I'll play along with DK's theory.

<< it is the pattern of toning that gives coin #1 away. >>

Was the top coin bagged because on the obverse there's an area near the rim that is untoned (and to a lesser extent on the reverse as well), and if it were truly album toned you would expect to find toning along the entire rim,

and conversely, coin #2 did get slabbed because the toning is along the entire rim -- obverse and reverse.

Just throwing that out there.

Michael

dorkkarl · July 29, 2003 1:14AM

frattlaw, in the words of the smothers-brothers, you are smart, very smart.

K S

dorkkarl · July 29, 2003 1:16AM

quite some time back, in another "a-t" thread, i mentioned an extremely, no CRITICAL, thing to look for when trying to detect a-t. you must examine the rim (or assume the slabing co. did so).

remember: a coin has 3 sides, not 2.

K S

Russ · July 29, 2003 2:03AM

Okay, what about this one?

Naturally toned, or artificially toned? Not graded by any service, BTW.

Russ, NCNE

LucyBop · July 29, 2003 2:05AM

That one Russ seems album toned to me.....

Russ · July 29, 2003 2:09AM

Lucy,

It does look like album toning, but it isn't.

Russ, NCNE

Dog97 · July 29, 2003 2:24AM

Ah-ha! So there are more of these out there.
11 90049982 1904-O S$1 Artificial Color
12 90049983 1904-O S$1 MS62
16 90049987 1904-O S$1 MS64
All bought raw in Texas. For those of you who make the usual disclaimers about not being able to tell anything from a picture, there's the guy that had them in hand and he can vouch for the pictures.
Thanks for that tidbit of info jbsteven.

The one pictured in the PCGS slab is the MS-64. Might you have a picture of the MS-62?

eagle7 · July 29, 2003 2:54AM

This is all about money! Its a lot like pulling a handle on a slot machine. Except here the odds are much better and the return on your money is much better. If you get good enough to even get twenty percent into one of the big two's holders you are making big money. And I have to admit I do see a certain similar look to lots of toned Morgan dollars in the top two holders these days. Hmm, maybe there are a few AT coins in the top two holders after all, even though some would say otherwise. Oh well, no one is perfect. I figured this out a long time ago and it hasnt stopped me from buying a toned Morgan if I like what it looks like! It sort of adds to the fun, like an easter egg hunt. When you find a really nice original toned Morgan it puts a smile on your face!

dorkkarl · July 29, 2003 3:24AM

note that nowhere did i say if it was ALBUM toned or not, just that it was m-a, ie. close enough looking to album tone that it's allowed to slide.

imo russ, you need to show me the edge of that coin, but judging by 2/3 of the available sides, that coin would pass. regardless, it is not natural-toning though.

point: fools pay the outrageous dollars for coins like that, when i know danged well that they are being churned out in a basement laboratory , probably even as we speak. i said it before & i'll say it again, you can draw a direct correlation between the advent of plastic & the humongous, outrageous spike in the supply of doctored coins. there is no questiion about it to anyone who's been around a few years & isn't blinded by propaganda.

bottom line: if you are truly honest w/ yourself, & you buy coins that you really really like, you can't get ripped off.

K S

dorkkarl · July 29, 2003 3:26AM

ahem ... this post intentionally left blank

Russ · July 29, 2003 3:33AM

<< imo russ, you need to show me the edge of that coin, but judging by 2/3 of the available sides, that coin would pass. regardless, it is not natural-toning though. >>

Karl,

By your definition, the only natural toning is grey. By the definition accepted by most the rest of the collecting community, you're wrong.

Russ, NCNE

dorkkarl · July 29, 2003 3:34AM

that's ok, since i've also never paid stupid $$$ for wild'n'crazy colors.

any chance of getting a digi-pic of the edge?

K S

Russ · July 29, 2003 3:36AM

<< any chance of getting a digi-pic of the edge? >>

Nope. That would require cracking it out of the keepsake holder where it's resided for the last 30 years.

Russ, NCNE

FrattLaw · July 29, 2003 9:00AM

<< I owned BOTH of these coins. I found both at a shop in Houston and sent them into PCGS for grading. >>

JB -- what shop did you get these from?

Michael

stujoe · July 29, 2003 10:41AM

<< 

<< I owned BOTH of these coins. I found both at a shop in Houston and sent them into PCGS for grading. >>

JB -- what shop did you get these from? Michael >>

Doc's Coins and BBQ?

Did the Doctor get a bad coin slabbed or did the Collector get a good coin bagged or what's the diff

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