I found a Full Step Chart (picture included)

kryptonitecomics · October 11, 2002 12:40PM

I know that there are a lot of Jefferson Nickel collectors out there, and they are always hunting for Full Step examples. I found this coinage magazine from 1984 in a box in my garage and it had a nice chart that showed how to determine if a coin rates the FS designation. I thought I would post it here as a resource for everyone to use.

kranky · October 11, 2002 12:46PM

That was interesting. I never knew how they figured FS nickels.

dan1ecu · October 11, 2002 12:47PM

Shane – Thanks for the informative post!

Dan

BSqr · October 11, 2002 12:53PM

Thanks!

That's handy.

coppercoins · October 11, 2002 12:58PM

Just in case you ever intend on getting rid of the old mags, let me know...I want anyone's refuse numismatic literature, I'll pay a nominal amount for it if required, and will pay the shipping.

BTW, very interesting story on nickels.

HoundDog · October 11, 2002 5:38PM

Thank You Kypto !

I have thinking about getting into FS. That is just the info I was looking for !

leothelyon · October 11, 2002 6:05PM

This diagram was provided by kryptonitecomics in his original post.

Ok class, let's see who knows how many steps there are on this one. Leo

SarasotaFrank · October 11, 2002 6:11PM

very informative - thanks!

leothelyon · October 11, 2002 6:26PM

Here's another.

clackamas · October 11, 2002 6:53PM

>>Ok class, let's see who knows how many steps there are on this one. Leo

#1 5 steps - assuming that the 2nd quarter, step 5 is actually broken. If its complete - 5.25 steps

#2 5 steps

By the method used by Mr. Weiss. The question is is this the way PCGS and NGC count the steps? I do not know but would like to find out. I use a full unbroken step to count before sending into grading. For these examples -

#1 3 steps

#2 4 steps

Which one is correct in terms of having a coin slabbed as FS?

clevegreg · October 11, 2002 10:08PM

#1 would be non FS from PCGS, only 4 steps.

#2 would be FS since 5 steps are present across the entire step device.

Greg

Gilbert · October 11, 2002 10:15PM

To me the examples Leothelyon provide look like a 4 and 5 step coin, respectively.

I really don't understand what a "point zero four and one half" (forty-five hundredths ??) step coin is.

The magazine instructions appear different then the instructions in the lastest (2nd) edition of The Jefferson Nickel Analyst, which describes "the PAK method" (dividing into quarters, counting each quarter and then dividing by 4) for getting the total number of steps,

BUT

this method DOESN'T provide a description of where the steps are missing, so, it was revised by Daniel Crane and illustrated by using the appropriate numbers per quarter (e.g., 6666 would be a full six steps, 5555 a full five or 6645 for an almost five steps).

Generally, steps are counted by viewing under power ( 7x to 10x and not higher than 20x) from left to right. Pre- 1971 design and strike weakness affecting the steps usually show up under the third pillar (opposite the high point on obverse). Where the steps merge together is called "bridges". A full step is counted when you have a defined raised line from left to right without bridges or deep nicks and abrasions. None of the grading services recognize less than 5 steps for a "full step" nickel.

NIckelCollector · October 12, 2002 12:00AM

Step counting has changed over time. Most methods break each step into quarters. Earlier methods added the quarters and divided by 4. Some of the coins adding up to 5 steps would not qualify for the FS designation today. I could add some really tuff coins under this method a 60D and a 61D to name a few.

Todays standard for PCGS requires at least 5 clean - complete steps to get the FS designation. Under the Crane method this would be a minimum 5555.

In effect I us the Crane method to track my FS coins. I distinguish between 5 1/4, 5 1/2, 5 3/4 and 6 step coins. I find this helpful (1 of the factors) when considering to upgrade or not.

leothelyon · October 12, 2002 12:45AM

Good morning class

(up late, up an hour ago)
I want to thank everyone for their great input, keep it coming. And to give credit to kryptonitecomics for this great topic. At first, I didn't want to turn this topic into something
silly but nonetheless somewhat enjoyable.

I agree with the assessments made here and would want to add that #1 example could be read as having a total of 5.25 steps (because it has 21 quarter steps) with 4 complete steps or (4 c. s.)
So I would make a note of 5.25 (4 c.s.) steps. In the #2 example, I would read it as having
5.50 steps but it wouldn't be necessary to make a note of the (5 c. s.) as a 5.50 step notation would signify the coin as having 5 complete steps. (4 c. s.) would be the highest notation to indicate steps less then having 5 complete steps. I hope that makes sense.

Here's another with a bridge on the 3rd and 4th steps. Leo

NIckelCollector · October 12, 2002 1:14AM

Leo:

Excellent clarification!

Frank

leothelyon · October 12, 2002 4:49AM

Here's one for the PCGS graders when discerning full steps for the ill-defined wavy steps on the 1938PDS and 1939PDS Type one Reverse of 1938 Jefferson nickels.

In this example the bridges have been placed on the 1st and 2nd steps and on the 4th and 5th
steps. Are there 5 full steps in this example.

I would be surprised to see a PCGS representative answer this but if they should happen to do so and if they wouldn't mind adding further comment on when 6 Step Jeffersons will get their due recognition or do I need to show another display of.....oops, I see kryptonitecomics has already
done that.

Futher comments later....stay tuned in...

Leo

leothelyon · October 12, 2002 5:59PM

Everyone is welcome to give a step count to the examples.

Frank
Thank you for the nice comment.
Have you seen this coin in another thread

How does a cyber-space 6 step collection sound. Aside from the common 6 steppers that would make the list, I'll add the possibility of a 1949 6 stepper to the CS collection.

Leo

keets · October 12, 2002 8:58PM

maybe i'm missing something, but it seems pointless to add quarters when what we're really after are FULL steps, cleanly defined from pillar 1 to pillar 4. it's a frustrating search sometimes but worth the effort.

leo, in your example with the bridge at steps 3 and 4-----would you prefer that coin or one with the bridge completely struck but totally missing the sixth step? i'd prefer the latter.

al h.

pontiacinf · October 12, 2002 9:12PM

wow I just started loving the series..

STOP SCARING ME!

leothelyon · October 13, 2002 1:22AM

in your example with the bridge at steps 3 and 4-----would you prefer that coin or one with the bridge completely struck but totally missing the sixth step? i'd prefer the latter

Hi Keets
That would to be the critera for certification purposes, five complete steps. But there are 20 to 30
illusive dates where settling for an example with less then 5 comeplete steps, needs to prove sufficient for the majority of FS collectors. You can see the difficulties experienced by checking the lower ranking registry sets. Over the 12 years I've been collecting this series, I have found myself learning towards locating the fs Jeff's with the earliest die state strikes. This has been just as challenging. Just recently, I finally have located a 1955-D with a strike that is very strong and this coin is brilliant and lustrous and doesn't have that dark look that was associated with the annealing problems they were having in those days. All five steps are there but for a bridge and
two light nicks. At 5x the steps look great but at 16x the problems can be seen. But for this find,
I'm just tickled to death over it. After 12 years and just 75 cents, I finally have a very nice example for that date and I think it would be very tough to improve. How someone counts the steps would depend on what their preferences would be and what they learn over time collecting this series.

Leo

mnmcoin · October 13, 2002 3:04AM

From my research...Anacs grades the way the mag explained in "quadrants" as long as there is 20 full quadrant you have a full step coin. I guess this is basically an "averaging" method. For example if you have in "quadrand" or "quarter" 1 6 steps, then in q2 4, then in q3 4, then in q4 6, you have 5 full steps...seeing as 6+4+4+6=20 and 20 divided by 4 quadrants is 5. That is how the grading co ANACS grades. I found this out by asking them at their table at Long Beach. PCGS however requires the steps on only the first 5 steps (riser) and first 4 threads to be complete and unbroken from the beginning of quadrant 1 to the end of quadrant 4. They do not divide up the quadrants and make an average. This generally means that if there is a nick or tick that breaks a step, it shouldn't be considered a fs nickel at PCGS, but at ANACS it theoretically still could. NGC, I am just going based on dealer info as I have not asked them or confirmed it with them via sending coins in, and that is that they require all 6 steps (risers) and all 5 threads be complete and unbroken, meaning complete seperation of steps with no joining at all.

So far I have seen this to be true in all of my submissions, however I have seen some variance and "gifts" given on coins that at least had sharper, bolder steps, but a nick or slight joining. This is also more likely to happen on a 43d or 40d, than lets say on a 53s, or 60d.

morris <><

leothelyon · October 13, 2002 7:50AM

Great info Morris,
I would like to add that it was the old PAK Full Step Nickel Club who came up with the method of counting steps in quarters. And I believe the new FSNC use it today. And the reason for it was that many dates could not be found to have 5 full steps. For this reason, this is why the system was developed. And later ANACS adopted it at the request of FS collectors. I know there are some original PAK member here on the boards that could shed more light on this. Even though ANACS has used this method, I believe it was seldom
use for the exception of the very difficult dates like the 38-S and 39PDS type 1 dates. If the date was already available with 5 full steps, for example the 1942-D then there was no need to use the quarter step count for that date. Although notations of 5.25, 5.50 and 5.75 step counts were used by collectors as stated by Frank Corso in his post, for upgrading purposes and dates having less then 6 steps.
The ANACS population report catalog is a great source to search for the availability of 6 step Jeffersons. ANACS has graded 25 different dates, 1938 to 1970, (750 nickels, MS64 to MS67) with having 6 steps. 10 of those dates are common making up 675 of the 750 nickels. So we have 15 dates with a total of less the 75 that have 6 full step examples. On further note, 8 dates of those 15 dates, there are only 11 pieces graded with 6 steps. (I have 3. I know one collector has at least 3. Corso and two other FS collectors may have the others) So if anyone has hopes of completing a NGC registry set consisting of 6 step nickels only, may end up with a very short set 10 to possibly 15 nickels out of the 80 coins from 38 to 70 dates.

Leo

NIckelCollector · October 13, 2002 9:20AM

Leo:

Do you have access to ANACS pop report? If so, how many if any has ANACS graded for the following dates in full step: 53S, 60D, and 61D?

Between NGC and PCGS only 4 - 53S ( 1 is new), 1 - 60d and 1 - 61D.

Frank

leothelyon · October 13, 2002 10:27AM

hi Frank
For the 53-S 26/12 with no MS66's There are no FS 60-D's or 61-D's certified by ANACS as of their
March report. There once were but no more.

Can you tell me why? This is not a trick question for there is a reasonable answer.

Leo

solid · October 13, 2002 12:08PM

I'm guessing those two coins were crossed to PCGS, and the certs returned to ANACS?

NIckelCollector · October 13, 2002 12:42PM

Leo:

I agree the coins were probably crossed from ANACS to PCGS. I find it very surprising that ANACS has not graded any full step coins for 53S, 60D or 61D.

Frank

leothelyon · October 13, 2002 12:48PM

Hi Ken
Congratulation! I see the Nevadaman only needs one more to complete his collection. It'd be complete had Nagengast's 53-S crossed. I had the pleasure talking with Bern about that coin
and his old collection. I wanted to know if I had his 53-S and who he sold his collection too.
Then I saw it in the registry. With all the talk about a showdown at the ANA in Florida, will
you , Frank, David and Bill be there if PCGS has it?

Leo

NIckelCollector · October 13, 2002 1:04PM

Leo:

I will definitely be going to the FUN show. It is about 2 hours from my house in Jacksonville. I was considering showing my set against the set Wondercoin represents and others perhaps. But truthfully, I'm not sure it is worth the effort, risk and expense.

We should check to see what Jefferson collectors will be going to FUN and on what day(s) in the December timeframe.

Maybe we will finally meet!!

Frank

leothelyon · October 13, 2002 1:27PM

I've never been up in the air before and it's a 40 hour round trip from where I'm at. Maybe you could stop by and give me a lift. LOL I don't know, isn't Florida swampy and humid. That could be a bad kind of thing for the coins. My collection isn't any thing to shout about. If I did make it there, I'd be lost and everyone would ignore me like most folks here. LOL I almost made the trip to the FUN show last Jan. but decided to forego the trip when I anticipated getting together with another FS collector which never happened.
Are you referring to the mystery Montana man? He may have most of Al's collection and then some. I think this guy, whomever he is, has two of the coins you mentioned. Do you know who
has the 4th.

Leo

NIckelCollector · October 13, 2002 1:40PM

Leo:

I know where 2 of the 53S are. Not sure where the others are. Nevadaman is looking hard for one.

Frank

leothelyon · October 13, 2002 1:57PM

Frank
Had a great conversation with David earler this year. I'll catch up with him and see what he's up to. There are 3 other collectors that should be there and there are others like Nagengast and Bill Fivas. I thought you would had springed for that 54-S although the strike wasn't too impressive.

Leo

I found a Full Step Chart (picture included)

Comments

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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