Fake OBW 1949-S Roll?

rmpsrpms · May 31, 2009 10:47PM

Seller has an "OBW" 49-S Lincoln Cent roll from United California Bank. However, UCB was not incorporated as such until 1961 (see link below)! The roll crimping looks good, very tight and clean, though the end coins don't show much tone for a 60 year old roll, so if it was re-rolled the perpetrator didn't bother to put the end coins properly in place. Anyone know the seller or have dealt with before?

Auction Link

United California Bank Merger Link

coinkid855 · May 31, 2009 11:36PM

Perhaps there was another United California Bank before the one that started in 1961?

-Paul

19Lyds · May 31, 2009 11:40PM

Wow, good detective work.

I've never purchased from this seller before but my curiosaity is definitely peaked. Have you asked the seller about this discrepancy?

rmpsrpms · May 31, 2009 11:45PM

<< Perhaps there was another United California Bank before the one that started in 1961?

If so, it would have gone out of business between 1949 and 1961, but I see no record of that happening.

-Paul >>

rmpsrpms · May 31, 2009 11:47PM

<< Wow, good detective work.

I've never purchased from this seller before but my curiosaity is definitely peaked. Have you asked the seller about this discrepancy? >>

Yes, but no response yet. Will post again if seller responds.

RBinTex · May 31, 2009 11:48PM

Why not just forge the name of a bank that WAS in existence?

sanitarium1inmate · June 1, 2009 12:14AM

I have not dealt with this particular person but I have been on the losing end of similar auctions. 1969s OBW of only 25 coins bright red, yeah they were mostly red but had all kinds of spots and nothing special. Even on the 72 roll also. But like the auction said they were pretty red. I wouldn't waste my money on them unless you had to have them.

rmpsrpms · June 1, 2009 12:54AM

Note that a 1939-S roll from this seller is in a wrapper from Security First National Bank, which was in existence in the 30's. The script on the roll looks "right" as well. But the end coins are so bright that the roll must have been stored in a vacuum chamber all its 70 years...

1939-S "OBW"

Res · June 1, 2009 1:08AM

<< Note that a 1939-S roll from this seller is in a wrapper from Security First National Bank, which was in existence in the 30's. The script on the roll looks "right" as well. But the end coins are so bright that the roll must have been stored in a vacuum chamber all its 70 years...

1939-S "OBW" >>

That one doesn't look tight though.

jmski52 · June 1, 2009 2:29AM

This seller sells alot of OBW rolls. I bought some OBW rolls from this seller last year - a roll of 1956-D and a roll of 1960-P Washington Quarters.

The roll of 1956-D's came in an original wrapper and had been opened and searched previously, at least that's what it looks like to me. The opened end had been re-crimped with a modern crimper, and the crimp didn't stay. Pretty obvious to me.

The roll of 1960-P's was in a flat wrapper that had been subsequently crimped. The creases from laying flat are still on the paper. Therefore, he had to know that he was selling me something that was NOT what he advertised it as.

For this thread, I got those rolls out to look at again. I opened both rolls and looked at the coins, since I know that they weren't OBW anyway (at least, not in my mind). The 1956-D's all have a "dusty" or "moldy" appearance on their edges, due to what I assumed to be poor storage conditions. They are all the same, so they are no doubt original. The coin surfaces have nice luster, tho. Looking at the edges under magnification, it's not mold but toning! Interesting.

Looking at the 1960-P roll edges, there is moderate discoloration but the coins have all probably been stored together for awhile, probably a long while. The luster on the coins is, again, booming.

My final take on this seller - I don't think the seller had much to do with the contents of the rolls, and he may or may not have searched them before selling them. The rolls were obviously not unopened, and he was selling them as "OBW".

I posed this question recently, and some people think that it's OK to call a roll "OBW" if it has been opened, so long as the coins are all from the original roll, as it was originally wrapped. I still can't get behind this idea - although my experience with the 2 rolls from this seller can't be considered fraudulent, I do consider his selling tactics to be misleading with his less-than-full disclosure about the status of the rolls.

rmpsrpms · June 1, 2009 5:30AM

<< ...

I posed this question recently, and some people think that it's OK to call a roll "OBW" if it has been opened, so long as the coins are all from the original roll, as it was originally wrapped. I still can't get behind this idea - although my experience with the 2 rolls from this seller can't be considered fraudulent, I do consider his selling tactics to be misleading with his less-than-full disclosure about the status of the rolls. >>

It is NOT OK to call an opened roll OBW. OBW means it was wrapped by the bank. If it is re-wrapped by hand or with a crimper, it was NOT wrapped by the bank, therefore not Bank Wrapped.

I remember the thread, though I guess not the conclusions. I am of the ilk that a roll is Original as long as it still has all its original coins in it. There was a thread that asked if it was OK to remove a coin, then put it back later, and still call the roll original. That is borderline for me, and probably depends on how long the coins were not together, since the separated coins may be stored differently.

For the 49-S and 39-S rolls in question, they are certainly not OBW. I would hazard to say they are not original, even if the coins were the same ones in the rolls originally, because the end coins were not put back in place and thus the coins will eventually be toned strangely. Many times I've opened "OBW" rolls to find that the end coins were not original end coins, and the roll now has 4 end toners.

Ray

golfer72 · June 1, 2009 10:03AM

The reason people buy OBW rolls is the mystery of exactly how good the coins are inside. If they have been looked at and then rewrapped that aspect is gone. If there were any beauties in there they would have been cherry picked from the roll if the roll was opened. OBW rolls are only worth a premium if never opened after they left the bank period.

sinin1 · June 1, 2009 1:18PM

how do you tell if all the coins have same date/mintmark if you don't look?

sanitarium1inmate · June 1, 2009 1:43PM

<< how do you tell if all the coins have same date/mintmark if you don't look? >>

Now that is a very good question.

Fake OBW 1949-S Roll?

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