Walker Strikes

ajia · April 5, 2008 2:50AM

I have a 40-S with a very weak strike in PCGS 62.
Also have a 41-S in PCI 64 with weak strike, though stronger than the 40-S.

My questions are:
Were strikes from the SF mint were routinely weak during this era
At what grade would this be a limiting factor. In other words, would you say that a weakly struck coin could never be a 65, or 66.
And would the coin be downgraded for weak strike. And if so, how much?

TorinoCobra71 · April 5, 2008 2:57AM

<< I have a 40-S with a very weak strike in PCGS 62.
Also have a 41-S in PCI 64 with weak strike, though stronger than the 40-S.

My questions are:
Were strikes from the SF mint were routinely weak during this era
At what grade would this be a limiting factor. In other words, would you say that a weakly struck coin could never be a 65, or 66.
And would the coin be downgraded for weak strike. And if so, how much? >>

I have learned that most walkers from 40-47 were weak strikes. ESP around the skirt lines on the OBV. and the eagles breast feathers on the reverse. I had one of these coins. I thought it was an AU55 sent it to PCGS and it came back in a 62 holder! Thats when I educated myself on these "weak strike" walkers.

Most of these weakly struck walkers grade no better than 63. I have never seen one in a 65 or 66 holder. Yes strike is a factor in the market grading process so it could knock it down a point or two. IMHO

TC71

RWB · April 5, 2008 3:19AM

From about 1935 through 1945 all three mints had chronic shortages of personnel and new equipment. Little had been done during the 1920s to upgrade and improve the mints, so when demand increased in 1934 quality began to suffer. San Francisco, in particular, had to deal with labor shortages, old equipment and large foreign coinage contracts. The mints were working 2 or 3 shifts per day long before WW-II further increased demand. Both halves and quarters suffer from weak strikes, although the effect is more noticeable on the half due to the design.

Walkerguy21D · April 5, 2008 4:27AM

The 40-S is one of the worst struck coins in the entire series, probably coin for coin even worse than the 27-s. Of course many more 40-S coins survive in MS though.
Most of the other S mint coins from the 40's are likewise weak, but not 'dished' like 40-S can be. Most of the P mint and the D mint coins from the 40's are WELL struck.
I agree that I rarely see weakly struck coins certified at 65 and higher. I did see one in a 66 holder recently with a pretty weak strike, which surprised me. But also note that WELL struck coins are almost non existant for some of these dates, so the ones certified as 65's and up usually have an 'average' strike - but aren't well struck relative to the other issues.

clarkbar04 · April 5, 2008 4:30AM

I've got an UNC 41-s with no facial features at all, it is just a flat spot where the face should be. What an ugly coin.

50cents · April 5, 2008 5:08AM

Check out some of 1940S and 1941S graded 65 and 66

I think you will fine your answer very fast.........

1940S

1941S

Manorcourtman · April 5, 2008 6:26AM

Do a search on Heritage for completed 1941-S PCGS MS65 Walkers. You will be amazed at some of the weak strikes in 65 holders. I was very amazed!!

Broadstruck · April 5, 2008 6:34AM

Even many of the proofs from 1936 - 1942 are missing full hand and head details... so it isn't just the business strikes.

A fully struck WLH is a sight to behold!

ajia · April 5, 2008 7:04AM

WOW!

Thanks for opening my eyes for these dates.

<<Most of the other S mint coins from the 40's are likewise weak, but not 'dished' like 40-S can be. >>
What made the planchets 'dish'??

Broadstruck · April 5, 2008 7:08AM

Philly dates from the 40's are a bit mushy too, as it's not just the branch mints.

Walkerguy21D · April 5, 2008 8:21AM

<< <<Most of the other S mint coins from the 40's are likewise weak, but not 'dished' like 40-S can be. >>
What made the planchets 'dish'?? >>

Good question. I don't know that the planchets themselves were dished, the dished appearance refers to the flat (and I mean absent) central details, with normal perimeter details present. I would venture that die spacing set too wide, or dies improperly annealed either buckled a little, and/or wore out prematurely with use. Just guesses on my part, others may have more knowledge about this.

RWB · April 5, 2008 8:54AM

During the early 1940s there are a few letters from Denver and SF complaining of bad dies. The letters are not specific to any denomination.

“There is another thing, too, that I think the Superintendent of the Philadelphia Mint is putting over ob us, which are the dies they are sending out here…[in five days] we have had 43 obverse and 54 reverse dies go out on us…It positively was the dies.” (August 21, 1943 from SF Mint to director of mint.)

If dies collapsed in the center, this would produce coins with good peripheral detail but poor central detail (as see on some New Orleans dollars, also).

claychaser · April 5, 2008 9:06AM

If dies collapsed in the center, this would produce coins with good peripheral detail but poor central detail (as see on some New Orleans dollars, also).

Here's a "deep dish" Comet. I Think it's a great example of an uncirculated, weakly struck coin:

bestday · April 5, 2008 12:53PM

<< Check out some of 1940S and 1941S graded 65 and 66

I think you will fine your answer very fast.........

1940S

1941S >>

Heritage 's ANA auction last month had some 1941-s PCGS MS-66 with pretty good strikes, even one , Heritage wrongly stated as 1941-s FULL STRIKe... Heritage auction descriptions lately , sometimes leave poor impressions

Raybo · April 5, 2008 3:58PM

<< If dies collapsed in the center, this would produce coins with good peripheral detail but poor central detail (as see on some New Orleans dollars, also).

Here's a "deep dish" Comet. I Think it's a great example of an uncirculated, weakly struck coin:

>>

Can you make your images bigger please?
I have a 28" monitor and I could not get one side of the coin to fit!

Thanks again,

Ray

Raybo · April 5, 2008 4:01PM

I had to scroll all the way across my screen to reply............I have to catch my breath!
Nice coin though!!

Ray

golfer72 · April 5, 2008 10:05PM

I love Walkers but hate weak strikes. I need the hand fully struck. The weak strikes take a lot out of the coin. That is the reason I never started a set of these. Buffalo nickles are similar in that respect.

Walkerguy21D · April 5, 2008 10:15PM

<< I love Walkers but hate weak strikes. I need the hand fully struck. The weak strikes take a lot out of the coin. That is the reason I never started a set of these. >>

I guess you could collect ASE's then

BAJJERFAN · April 5, 2008 10:46PM

Shudda called this Weaker Walker strikes...

Hard to tell deep dish from that pic so here is a bigger one for those of you with 60 inch monitors. The 91-o seems to show that deep dish effect, just hold it under the light and watch how the light focuses to the center. Pretty neat.

Broadstruck · April 5, 2008 11:43PM

Not sure if deep dish is the right term with these morgans if it's just a colapsed die strike.

Here's a broadstuck out of collar WLH which does resemble a 1921 High Relief Peace $1.

Connecticoin · April 6, 2008 1:19AM

The "S" mints from the 40s are by far the most poorly struck Walkers. As you can see in the Heritage auctions, many with no hand detailes can end up in Gem holders (presumably becuase lack of marks and great luster make up for the weak strike).

However, with diligent searching, you CAN find better-struck "S" Walkers with hand details. I too HATE weak strikes, so it is well worth the search for me.

ajia · April 6, 2008 1:35AM

Changing gears a little bit, what would you all say is the grade 'damage' for weakly struck coins.

I have read (maybe just my interpretation) where MS63 would normally be tops.
I see many MS65's on the Heritage auction link.

So, would the consensus be grade normally; normal -1; or someting else?

Thanks so much for the replies so far, well maybe except for claychaser's image that I had to project onto a wall to see.

JC cc

Jcarney · April 6, 2008 1:44AM

<< Do a search on Heritage for completed 1941-S PCGS MS65 Walkers. You will be amazed at some of the weak strikes in 65 holders. I was very amazed!! >>

I remember seeing a PCGS MS62 41S Walker at one of the Baltimore shows a few years back. This coin was blast white with unbelievable luster and not one tick under 5X. I couldn't believe it was only graded MS62. Then I happened to notice that it was, by far, the worst struck 41S I'd ever seen.

It probably had EF-AU details.

fivecents · April 6, 2008 1:55AM

Here is my weakly struck 1945-S. It is graded MS62 by PCGS. This coin has full bloom luster, even over the weak areas at the center of the obverse and reverse. I have heard that PCGS down grades extremely weak struck walkers (like the one I posted) with the MS62 grade.

Broadstruck · April 6, 2008 2:06AM

fivecents, great looking weak strike example!

50cents · April 6, 2008 3:22AM

Broadstruck, that is a STRIKE

Fivecent, I like that Walker

The 35D Has my vote for the worst struck Walker of the series.

WTCG · April 6, 2008 4:22AM

The San Francisco mint Walkers until the very late years (1946-1947) were notoriously weak struck. That is why for many dates there is a substantial price difference between the MS64 and MS65 grade examples.

A weaker strike is generally acceptable for grades up to MS64, but any grade higher requires a stronger strike. Even in the gem grades the San Francisco mint coins are allowed a weaker strike than their Philadelphia counterparts. Take a look at multiple examples of MS64 graded S-mint Walkers and you'll notice that many of them have minimal imperfections but are precluded from a higher grade because of weak details on the devices.

clarkbar04 · April 6, 2008 3:53PM

Maybe I'm just nuts but I don't think that 35-d walker or that 90 morgan are that weakly struck. Not full, but far from the worst.

50cents · April 6, 2008 6:46PM

<< Maybe I'm just nuts but I don't think that 35-d walker or that 90 morgan are that weakly struck. Not full, but far from the worst. >>

On the 35D Walker, I was taking about the date in general, not the coin in the picture

Walker Strikes

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