Are these Judd-listed patterns ?
dcarr
Posts: 9,103 ✭✭✭✭✭
This Thread about a J-37 got me wondering if any of the three pieces shown below are listed in Judd (yes, I should buy my own Judd book and I will) ?
The 1805 Bust Half Eagle piece shown below shares the SAME obverse die as J-37. These pieces are shown (or discussed) in the Breen Encyclopedia (1988 edition) on page 158. The first piece is Breen 1376. The other two are mentioned, but have no Breen number. The Eagle on Shield dies are, according to Breen, discarded US Government revenue paper embossing dies. The 1805 Bust Half Eagle is a discarded US Mint die. And the other is a discarded (unfinished) US Mint early Bust Quarter reverse die.
Copper, 30mm, 13.3 grams, Breen 1376:
Copper, 26mm, 5.8 grams:
Copper, 29mm, 10.7 grams:
Breen page 158:
The 1805 Bust Half Eagle piece shown below shares the SAME obverse die as J-37. These pieces are shown (or discussed) in the Breen Encyclopedia (1988 edition) on page 158. The first piece is Breen 1376. The other two are mentioned, but have no Breen number. The Eagle on Shield dies are, according to Breen, discarded US Government revenue paper embossing dies. The 1805 Bust Half Eagle is a discarded US Mint die. And the other is a discarded (unfinished) US Mint early Bust Quarter reverse die.
Copper, 30mm, 13.3 grams, Breen 1376:
Copper, 26mm, 5.8 grams:
Copper, 29mm, 10.7 grams:
Breen page 158:
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Comments
1. Are any of these prototypes or proposed designs for coinage?
2. Are they metallurgical or other experimental pieces?
3. Were any of these prepared at the Philadelphia Mint or on authority of the Mint Bureau?
<< <i>My first questions would be:
1. Are any of these prototypes or proposed designs for coinage?
2. Are they metallurgical or other experimental pieces?
3. Were any of these prepared at the Philadelphia Mint or on authority of the Mint Bureau? >>
According to Breen, these were privately struck by Dickeson circa 1860, using discarded US Mint dies. It is possible, I suppose, that J-37 was also struck by Dickeson circa 1860.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
<< <i>This piece has to be related; though it may also mean the auction catalog description is not accurate. >>
Interesting. The Stack's piece is definitely from the same die, or from the same central device punch.
<< <i>
<< <i>This piece has to be related; though it may also mean the auction catalog description is not accurate. >>
Interesting. The Stack's piece is definitely from the same die, or from the same central device punch. >>
I think it's from the same die, since I think I can see the same harsh die scratches in both.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
<< <i>Copper, 30mm, 13.3 grams, Breen 1376:
This above piece is listed as Pollock-6015, in the private restrikes section. His plate is of a white metal piece in the ANS (P-6020) and speculatively calls the copper issue R-7, but only enumerates one specimen: Superior's Ruby sale of Feb 1974: 173. The plate coin is of an apparently earlier die state, also. It is not in my 8th edition Judd, though apparently it is included in earlier editions (and maybe the 9th, I don't have that one).
<< <i>Copper, 26mm, 5.8 grams:
This piece is listed as P-6130, with a speculative R-7 rating (probably more rare). Pollock doesn't enumerate any specimens at auction, nor is it plated. This is not listed in 8th Judd, and apparently not in earlier editions per Pollock.
<< <i>Copper, 29mm, 10.7 grams:
This piece is apparently unlisted.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
Fantastic information, thanks !!
This is a great thread! Dcarr, can you tell us anything about the origins of the collection that you are selling on eBay? The collector must have been a serious numismatist. Did he/she leave any notes on any of the pieces? I like the token struck over a shilling.
<< <i>This is a great thread! Dcarr, can you tell us anything about the origins of the collection that you are selling on eBay? The collector must have been a serious numismatist. Did he/she leave any notes on any of the pieces? I like the token struck over a shilling. >>
I do not know anything about the person who amassed the collection. But the heirs to the estate contacted a curios shop (antiques, collectibles, etc) about selling it. Fortunately, the shop owner has a partner who is a serious numismatist/dealer (mostly US coins but not so much exonumia). Anyway, the numismatist/dealer is a friend of mine and I'm working with him to sell the exonumia parts of the collection so that the heirs will get a fair price. A month or so ago I bought about 900 Civil War tokens from the estate outright and sold them on eBay. There were some neat pieces in that group - like an 1863 Washington Head Civil War token struck on a high-grade 1842-O dime. The current batch is the last of the exonumia. I understand that there are some early US coins in the estate as well, but I don't know anything about those at this point.
The intersting thing about this whole collection is the condition of the items relative to when they were produced. The items in the collection that were made prior to about 1830 are generally low grade (with a couple exceptions). Items from the 1830-1860 period are generally middle-of-the-road condition wise. Items from 1860-1880 are generally in unusually nice condition. There are few things in the collection newer than 1880 vintage, but not many. Those apperar to have been added to the collection later on, possibly by someone else.
<< <i>Very cool collection! With a neat assortment of colonial coins and paper, perhaps you could make a few images of what a typical coin purse would have contained back in those days. As for the private restrikes from discarded dies, I think you should do quite well with them. They are all quite rare, the commonest one with the eagle on the globe is known by only 8 pieces. >>
I think you may be confusing it with the variety shown here.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
From looking at your ebay sales, it looked like this was a period accumulation rather than a collection. It is much more interesting as such (until its sold and broken up)