My latest raw buying experience on Ebay. Sigh.

RonBurgundy · July 16, 2008 12:34AM

I bought a fairly big raw card via Paypal (used the discount) last week and sent it in. It came back trimmed.

I inform the seller last night, and indicate I want a refund. He replies this morning saying nothing about a refund, but insisting the card is not trimmed, he measured it up, he never buys anything altered, who did I send it to, blah blah blah. Obviously nothing about "satisfaction guaranteed".

Next move?

RB

OAKESY25 · July 16, 2008 12:40AM

maybe it wasn't? sometimes.. if you have a very nice vintage card.. it comes back trimmed..
I am convinced that they have to suspect trimming on cards that old that come in so nice..
I have sent cards 2-3 times with varying degrees of success after getting them back "trimmed"
I would love to see it.. and know who the seller is.. just as food for thought

lsutigers1973 · July 16, 2008 12:42AM

File a SNAD and neg the shiznit out of him. BTW, a few of the cards I pulled from wax stuff from you will be headed to PSA next week. If I can get a 10 from a few, especially the 83 Topps Sandberg, you will be my new best friend.

BobaFett72 · July 16, 2008 12:43AM

auction link? pics?

RonBurgundy · July 16, 2008 12:48AM

Here it is. I was a little concerned from the scan and when I got the card.

58 Maris

originalisbest · July 16, 2008 12:50AM

I would've been concerned too Ron, 'specially since the seller has other graded cards up -- what, he didn't think this one would be worth grading? Hmmm. Sorry that happened.

digicat · July 16, 2008 12:52AM

"Buy with Confidence"

clydecoolidge · July 16, 2008 12:56AM

It certainly doesn't look trimmed, but it would be cool if the guy offered a refund. I sell alot of raw cards that were in my father's collection, and I'm quite certain there are none that are trimmed, but I would certainly offer a refund if a buyer can prove that one of the big 3 grading companies deemed it trimmed.

OAKESY25 · July 16, 2008 12:58AM

IS THE TOP OF THAT PIC CROPPED???

hofautos · July 16, 2008 1:00AM

does his statement "no refunds on graded cards" imply refunds on non-graded cards?

i quit buying ungraded vintage a long time ago...

fattymacs · July 16, 2008 1:04AM

I've purchased raw from that dealer before and mine graded. This is disturbing because that seller WAS on my OK list, no longer. You stick it to one of us, you stick it to all of us.

RonBurgundy · July 16, 2008 1:06AM

Yup. I haven't bought this big of a raw card online in months, but with the Paypal discount going I figured what the heck plus I need a Maris for my set. I can use the new buyer's leverage now to my advantage, I guess.

I think my next question to him is going to be, "did you ever grade it?", and if so, "what was the outcome"? "If not, why not?"

RB

fattymacs · July 16, 2008 1:09AM

Run him over the coals and let us know how it goes.

originalisbest · July 16, 2008 1:15AM

Whatever you do Ron, just make sure you file the PayPal dispute in plenty of time to get your $$ back.

PoppaJ · July 16, 2008 1:17AM

<< I bought a fairly big raw card via Paypal (used the discount) last week and sent it in. It came back trimmed.

I inform the seller last night, and indicate I want a refund. He replies this morning saying nothing about a refund, but insisting the card is not trimmed, he measured it up, he never buys anything altered, who did I send it to, blah blah blah. Obviously nothing about "satisfaction guaranteed".

Next move?

RB >>

Ron,

Based upon many of his neutral and negative feedbacks from others, I'd say that he probably knew the card was trimmed. Feedbacks

I'd just file a complaint with PayPal if he doesn't want to do what's right.

Sorry to hear this happened, especially to what seemed to be a nice pickup of a great card!

Good luck,
PoppaJ

RonBurgundy · July 16, 2008 1:20AM

How much time do I have to file a dispute?

Archaninator · July 16, 2008 1:29AM

PoppaJ · July 16, 2008 1:31AM

<< How much time do I have to file a dispute? >>

You can open a dispute in the Resolution Center within 45 calendar days of payment. By opening a dispute, you are able to communicate directly with your seller to work out a problem transaction.

If you and your seller are unable to agree on a solution, you must escalate the dispute to a PayPal claim within 20 calendar days of the date the dispute was opened. By escalating to a claim, you would be asking PayPal to review the case and decide the outcome.

PoppaJ · July 16, 2008 1:33AM

<< http://www.network54.com/Forum/526604/message/1208225652/ebay+purchase..+a+heads+up+to+the+board... >>

LINK

fiveniner · July 16, 2008 1:46AM

<< I bought a fairly big raw card via Paypal (used the discount) last week and sent it in. It came back trimmed.

I inform the seller last night, and indicate I want a refund. He replies this morning saying nothing about a refund, but insisting the card is not trimmed, he measured it up, he never buys anything altered, who did I send it to, blah blah blah. Obviously nothing about "satisfaction guaranteed".

Next move?

I had the same situation but the opposite I sold a Bob Clemete 158 YL Raw and the buyer sent it in for grading and it came back trimmed.The buyer called me everything in the book until I told him I would contact a lawyer for his slander .After I explained to him that a would gladly give him a full refund he aplogized to me and later sent me a 1958 Topps Aaron YL to show his sincere apology low grade PSA which I did not expect.Everything was cool and days later I went to the dealer that originally sold me the card about a year earlier and gave me a refund no questions asked.

RB >>

Tony

stevek · July 16, 2008 2:03AM

<< I would've been concerned too Ron, 'specially since the seller has other graded cards up -- what, he didn't think this one would be worth grading? Hmmm. Sorry that happened. >>

Absolutely right - "especially" a $600 card.

Leiascards · July 16, 2008 2:50AM

Since he has other graded cards this pretty much proves he has most likely submitted the card and already knew the result of the sub. File a SNAD, send it back to him with DC, add him to your BBL so you are protected should he try to bid on something just to neg you back.

StanTheManMusial · July 16, 2008 3:17AM

<< Yup. I haven't bought this big of a raw card online in months, but with the Paypal discount going I figured what the heck plus I need a Maris for my set. I can use the new buyer's leverage now to my advantage, I guess.

I think my next question to him is going to be, "did you ever grade it?", and if so, "what was the outcome"? "If not, why not?"

RB >>

Do you honestly think he would tell you if he had sent it in, and it had been previously rejected for evidence of trimming?

I would never buy raw vintage on Ebay for this very reason.

I would inform him that either he can refund, or you will be filing a PP claim, and things will only get more complicated if you have to take this step.

jimq112 · July 16, 2008 4:34AM

If you have a lot of time, check the cert #s on the cards he has listed and recently sold, and if you can find a run of cards check for missing numbers. Maybe you'll find 1958 maris evid of trim.

It's a lot of effort but if you find it then it would be hard for him to deny.

11235813 · July 16, 2008 5:31AM

Ron,

Sorry to hear about this, but I think you are going to have a hard time getting your money back through Ebay/PayPal. They do not consider the opinion of a TPG to be any more valid than anybody else's opinion, so filing a SNAD is not likely to help you.

This is one reason why I rarely buy from sellers who do not have a no-questions-asked refund policy.

BobaFett72 · July 16, 2008 5:49AM

"There are no returns on professionally graded cards. Thanks for looking"

so....that means you can return this one then

if i read his auction description correctly...

diamondman · July 16, 2008 7:02AM

<< Since he has other graded cards this pretty much proves he has most likely submitted the card and already knew the result of the sub. File a SNAD, send it back to him with DC, add him to your BBL so you are protected should he try to bid on something just to neg you back. >>

Send it back with signature confirmation it being over 250.00 Ebay requires a signature on items 250.00 or more just to protect yourself.

mtcards · July 16, 2008 7:18AM

Ahh, the dreaded WOW/AWESOME title

stevek · July 16, 2008 7:21AM

<< 

<< I would've been concerned too Ron, 'specially since the seller has other graded cards up -- what, he didn't think this one would be worth grading? Hmmm. Sorry that happened. >>

Absolutely right - "especially" a $600 card. >>

Sorry to pile on but I think this is an important point to remember. He's got a Mantle graded PSA 8 for less money, so why isn't the Maris graded, a $600 raw card? To me it's obvious why, as others have correctly noted.

Welcome to my auction. Up for bid:

1960 Topps MICKEY MANTLE All Star #563 Yankees PSA NMMT 8. Card is Razor Sharp, Clean, Very Glossy and Centered. Looks MINT.

price: US $449.99

BTW...In my opinion that Mantle has most likely been cleaned and pressed - the color and gloss on that card does not look like natural aging to me. This seller is very clever...he knows exactly what he is doing when it comes to slabbing and not slabbing baseball cards. Hope you can get your money back.

Leiascards · July 16, 2008 7:24AM

<< Ron,

Sorry to hear about this, but I think you are going to have a hard time getting your money back through Ebay/PayPal. They do not consider the opinion of a TPG to be any more valid than anybody else's opinion, so filing a SNAD is not likely to help you.

This is one reason why I rarely buy from sellers who do not have a no-questions-asked refund policy. >>

They actually do take the words of third parties seriously you just have know how to play their game. Basically under most situations what will happen is the buyer files a SNAD, Paypal tells buyer to return item that money is frozen in the sellers account when item shows as returned the money is refunded to buyer. On occassion Paypal will ask for a third party opinion on the item.

I say file the SNAD immediatly.

11235813 · July 16, 2008 7:46AM

The problems Ron has in this case are twofold.

1) Whether or not a card is trimmed is a matter of opinion. Nobody can conclusively prove so one way or the other. PSA's opinion may have some value, but unless Ron can show that the card does not measure up properly, he will have trouble "proving" that it was trimmed. After all, the seller can claim that PSA's opinion is "wrong", and since it is just an opinion, Ron would have no effective counterargument. As has been noted many different times on this board, PSA often declares cards to be trimmed when first submitted which are not, and which pass muster and receive grades when resubmitted a second time.
2) The card was out of Ron's possession when it was submitted to PSA, which opens up chain of custody issues.

If he files a SNAD, how does he prove that the item is "significantly not as described" given that whether or not it is trimmed is a matter of opinion?

bxb · July 16, 2008 8:08AM

In my experience, the vast majority of raw cards on ebay are either overgraded or have problems. It is a real crapshoot. It is human nature for a seller to embellish their material, either subconsciously, or deliberately to deceive. This was one of the primary reasons that third party grading came to be. I would especially be wary of expensive raw cards like this one, because the risk is higher.

The other issues I see here are: I can't tell from the pic if this card is trimmed - PSA's opinion is not infallible. Once I pulled a HOF vintage card right from a 40 year old certified cello pack and PSA returned it "trimmed". The same card was resubmitted and came back "miscut", and the same card submitted a third time came back PSA 9! (I graded it 8 or 9 myself from the outset) - my point being that a lot of this stuff is subjective.

Re: the seller's return policy for raw cards: not clear. He says no returns on certified cards, but makes no comment about raw cards. I have seen lots of sellers do this. He could just say no returns on any cards, that would make it simpler. If I were bidding on this item, I might ask about return policy prior to bidding. Actually, I would not myself bid on a raw card this expensive, but you see my point.

Last: as a seller, I would accept a return here without hassling the buyer. As you can see from the other comments on this thread, his reputation has taken a hit and it may cost him much more than the return of one card. Returns are a normal part of any retail business, as long as the requests are reasonable. In the long run I would respect a seller much more if he did this, and would do more business with him in the future.

$0.02

Leiascards · July 16, 2008 8:10AM

In most cases Paypal does not care if the card is trimmed or not. The SNAD is commonly used as a way to force a refund on Buyers remorse. Very rarely do they ask for proof.

storm888 · July 16, 2008 8:33AM

They actually do take the words of third parties seriously you just have know how to play their game. Basically under most situations what will happen is the buyer files a SNAD, Paypal tells buyer to return item that money is frozen in the sellers account when item shows as returned the money is refunded to buyer. On occassion Paypal will ask for a third party opinion on the item.

I say file the SNAD immediatly.

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ALL true.

It's an EASY SNAD.

Sellers who sell PSA cards AND expensive "raw cards" do so for a reason.

If the subject card could have made it into a PSA-slab it would have been in one. .............. BEFORE he sold it.

PayPal accepts PSA "opinions" as evidence in SNAD claims. Usually,
they do not even ask, but sometimes they do.

The seller's mere hesitation in the matter has likely already cost him ALOT of future money.
This board is a hazard to iffy sellers.

EagleEyeKid · July 16, 2008 9:15AM

Wow, sorry that happened to you.
I agree with what everyone has said.
Why wasn't it graded if he grades everything else?
That razor top edge is inconsistent with the other 3 edges.
Maybe that's what PSA thought too. Hope you get your $ back.

stevek · July 16, 2008 9:53AM

Without any doubt as far as I am concerned, the card is definitely SNAD. The seller described the card as NMMT (near mint-mint) - Well in my view any trimming of a card like this, turns it into a worthless card. Yes, a trimmed card such as this may have some value to some people, but even if there is value to some people, the price would be significantly, SIGNIFICANTLY less than $600 for this card.

SDavid · July 16, 2008 10:11AM

I agree that you shouldn't have any trouble getting your money back, and if the seller is reasonably bright you won't have to go that route. This is NOT the time for ebay sellers to tangle with buyers.

It looks like the seller buys most of his stuff already graded through another id (gimble200). I'm not sure how much stuff he has actually submitted, but he's obviously aware of the premium graded cards bring.

Treetop · July 16, 2008 11:13AM

Nice looking card, but its trimmed. Top of the card for sure!

Ron, I'm surprised at you for buying this card on ebay RAW...shame, shame, shame!!!!

hofautos · July 16, 2008 11:19AM

I would think you could SNAD it also since the description states NMMT

I would definitely file a claim.

DrJ · July 16, 2008 11:41AM

<< Wow, sorry that happened to you.
I agree with what everyone has said.
Why wasn't it graded if he grades everything else?
That razor top edge is inconsistent with the other 3 edges.
Maybe that's what PSA thought too. Hope you get your $ back. >>

Maybe Vanguard Grading will take a look at the card as well?

RonBurgundy · July 16, 2008 12:10PM

Yep, it's all on me for rolling the dice but I was in a gambling mood that day.

I'll get my money back one way or another, be it through mere refund, Paypal, or Texas Justice.

RB

grote15 · July 16, 2008 12:14PM

I pulled a mint Brett RC right out of a rack pack and it came back trimmed from PSA. Sent it in a second time and it came back Mint 9.

stevek · July 16, 2008 12:16PM

<<>>

He's got this noted on his Mantle listing.

RonBurgundy · July 22, 2008 3:31AM

The seller has not responded to my email requesting his shipping address so I can return the card. How long do I wait before filing a SNAD?

I'm so flipping mad about it I want to neg him now.

Ron

Tvac897 · July 22, 2008 3:35AM

If you paid through paypal report the fraud to them...

storm888 · July 22, 2008 3:36AM

"The seller has not responded to my email requesting his shipping address so I can return the card. How long do I wait before filing a SNAD? "

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File it YESTERDAY.

jimq112 · July 22, 2008 3:55AM

<< "The seller has not responded to my email requesting his shipping address so I can return the card. How long do I wait before filing a SNAD? "

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File it YESTERDAY. >>

You don't have to return the card first, you can file and then return it later, but make sure you file before you run out of time. Bad sellers make a habit of stalling you until the time runs out and then telling you to get lost.

Don't worry about making him mad, file it.

storm888 · July 22, 2008 4:07AM

Yes, definitely wait for PP to instruct you to send the card back.

Use Signature Confirmation and USPS insurance.

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In your SNAD claim, include the online access to the PSA evid-trim info, if you can.
Otherwise, FAX the PSA forms to PP as an addendum to the claim.

RonBurgundy · July 28, 2008 12:43AM

The seller refunded me on Saturday.

RB

EagleEyeKid · July 28, 2008 12:47AM

Glad it worked out for you.

fattymacs · July 28, 2008 12:52AM

Good to hear, I've got that jabroni on my never-ever list.

My latest raw buying experience on Ebay. Sigh.

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