FRAUD ALERT: Counterfeit '71 bb & fb racks listed on ebay today!
summerof68
Posts: 748 ✭
Today ebay seller (letsgetitstarted) out of North Carolina listed two 1971 baseball rack packs along with a '71 football rack pack with Joe Namath showing on the back.
Several red flags with all three of these listings. First, this seller in particular has been mentioned several times on these boards as a seller of counterfeit vintage packs of all types.
Second, he is in a big hurry to move these as he has placed the two '71 bb racks in (buy it now) auctions for $399 & $395 respectively. '71 bb racks retail for $1000 each and usually bring $700 to $800 at auction so no (experienced) seller is going to give these racks away at such prices unless they were bad.
Third, he has similarly listed the '71 fb rack in a (buy it now) auction for $410. '71 fb racks are extremely rare and the common racks with no stars visible bring $450 to $500 on ebay and I've seen them go for over $1000 at pretigious auction houses. But a legit rack with Namath showing would bring much more. Again no experienced seller would give away such a rare & highly sought after rack for $410.
And last and most important is the physical evidence that the fb rack is indeed counterfeit. If you look at the close up picture of the Namath card you can clearly see the narrow, (single-wide) vertical folding seam in the cellophane to the immediate left of the Namath card. From 1968 to 1974 Topps used (double-wide) vertical folding seams on their racks. It wasn't until '75 that Topps switch to the single-wide vertical folding seam. The use of cheaper mid to late '70's racks to create much more expensive '70 thru '73 racks is a very common practice with sophisticated counterfeiters.
What occured here is someone took a cheaper rack (probably from from the late 70's) and with surgeon-like precision opened the horizontal seals and removed the cards and header and then replaced the cards and header with '71 fb cards and a '70 thru '73 generation header. It's possible that the header itself is a "reproduction".
The counterfeiter then "recrimped" the horizonal seals in an attempt to reproduce the look of the original factory seals. Some counterfeiters out there are exceptionally good at reproducing the factory look of such seals.
Note* And just by coincidence this seller has also listed some '74 fb racks where the complete header section and other sections have been cleanly cut and removed. He says "someone else did this". Are these partial racks left over sections from his other "handywork" or "experimentations"? These intentionally dissected racks are in the least another red flag. I would be very careful buying any vintage unopened packs from this seller!
For the record I am not saying that this seller himself "made" these '71 racks or dissected the '74 racks. I am simply bringing these racks to the attention of fellow board members so they can make their own assessments.
'71 Namath rack ebay listing# 330391534887
Several red flags with all three of these listings. First, this seller in particular has been mentioned several times on these boards as a seller of counterfeit vintage packs of all types.
Second, he is in a big hurry to move these as he has placed the two '71 bb racks in (buy it now) auctions for $399 & $395 respectively. '71 bb racks retail for $1000 each and usually bring $700 to $800 at auction so no (experienced) seller is going to give these racks away at such prices unless they were bad.
Third, he has similarly listed the '71 fb rack in a (buy it now) auction for $410. '71 fb racks are extremely rare and the common racks with no stars visible bring $450 to $500 on ebay and I've seen them go for over $1000 at pretigious auction houses. But a legit rack with Namath showing would bring much more. Again no experienced seller would give away such a rare & highly sought after rack for $410.
And last and most important is the physical evidence that the fb rack is indeed counterfeit. If you look at the close up picture of the Namath card you can clearly see the narrow, (single-wide) vertical folding seam in the cellophane to the immediate left of the Namath card. From 1968 to 1974 Topps used (double-wide) vertical folding seams on their racks. It wasn't until '75 that Topps switch to the single-wide vertical folding seam. The use of cheaper mid to late '70's racks to create much more expensive '70 thru '73 racks is a very common practice with sophisticated counterfeiters.
What occured here is someone took a cheaper rack (probably from from the late 70's) and with surgeon-like precision opened the horizontal seals and removed the cards and header and then replaced the cards and header with '71 fb cards and a '70 thru '73 generation header. It's possible that the header itself is a "reproduction".
The counterfeiter then "recrimped" the horizonal seals in an attempt to reproduce the look of the original factory seals. Some counterfeiters out there are exceptionally good at reproducing the factory look of such seals.
Note* And just by coincidence this seller has also listed some '74 fb racks where the complete header section and other sections have been cleanly cut and removed. He says "someone else did this". Are these partial racks left over sections from his other "handywork" or "experimentations"? These intentionally dissected racks are in the least another red flag. I would be very careful buying any vintage unopened packs from this seller!
For the record I am not saying that this seller himself "made" these '71 racks or dissected the '74 racks. I am simply bringing these racks to the attention of fellow board members so they can make their own assessments.
'71 Namath rack ebay listing# 330391534887
"You tell 'em I'm coming...and hell's coming with me"--Wyatt Earp
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"Shipping will be $4.00 and the buyer must add for insurance if so desired."
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TOS violation.
It is uncommon to find counterfeit wax trays. It is very difficult to open the double layered seal at either end of the tray (without tearing), slide out the three original packs and replace them with resealed or altogether different wax packs, then reseal the tray (and) successfully reproduce those several dozen 1/2" factory lines (depressions actually) on the top of the seal.
When you do come across a counterfeit wax tray those 1/2" factory lines (at one end of the tray) will most likely be much smoother and less defined than those same lines on the opposite end of the tray.
These smoother and lesser defined lines are a result of the counterfeiter applying uniform pressure atop the seal when resealing.
Counterfeit wax trays do occur but almost always with higher-end trays. Due to it's value the '79 topps hockey tray is a tray that is counterfeited. And don't put it past individuals to remove the packs from a '79 (football) tray and replace them with '79 hockey packs-- the brown oval and 20-cent price on the cello as well as the graphics on the cardboard are identical on both trays!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Pat Barry? God, I wish we could eliminate these guys from EBAY >>
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All of his current listings will likely be removed, if the INS TOS-violation is reported.
PS I remember a couple of years ago there was a lot of talk on our "WAX PACK" message board on eBay that Topps never produced 1979 Hockey Wax Pack Racks. Does anyone know 100% either way? THANKS.
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
Look at the back of the pack. The bottom left corner! You can see how thick the cellophane is.
Current obsession, all things Topps 1969 - 1972
Your suspicions are correct. The '58 Boling cello at Mile High is indeed a counterfeit--no surprise that it is in a later generation gai holder.
1957 thru 1961 Topps cellos have a very unique and recognizable rear seal configuration which makes it easy to spot a counterfeit from those years.
The rear seal configuration on '57 thru '61 topps cellos look virtually identical to the rear seal configuration of a topps wax tray. Two overlaping seals at the top, two overlaping seals at the bottom, and a roughly 1" wide seal that runs down the middle of the whole length of the pack. The '57 Unitas cello at this same auction has the correct seal configuration--and no surprise that it is in the early generation gai holder.
This '58 Boling cello has the traditional "Christmas package" style seals used by Topps from '62 onward.
I will add however that Gai did mistakingly slab alot of "bad" '58 bb cellos with all-silver labels.
And remember that pretigious auction houses are not immune to listing counterfeit packs in Gai holders. A couple years back REA had both a '58 & '59 baseball cello in gai holders. They had no pictures of the backs of the packs so I contacted them and informed them about all the bad '58's out there so they sent me reverse pictures of both. The '58 was bad and the '59 was good. Two days later REA pulled the '58 pack. After that auction REA began stating in their catalog's that Steve Hart now inspects all their unopened material prior to listing it in their auctions.
And a couple auctions ago Mile High also sold an auction containing (5) five counterfeit '70 bb 12-card grocery cellos in gai holders. So don't rely on the reputation of the auction house--do your own homework and rely only on your own knowledge. REA, due to their new policy, is a very reliable auction house with respect to unopened material!
I just saw Jmoran19's reply and he is one of the country's foremost experts and collectors of high-end vintage material. He beat me to it and his picture is worth a thousand words. You can see this very unique and easily recognizable seal configuration that is virtually identical to that of a wax tray.
I don't know how to add pictures to my replies that is why I referenced the Unitas pack. But the light colored background of Jmoran's pack clearly makes visible the configuration of the seals.
That sad part of this whole story is that the "experts" at Gai don't even know the basic difference in the seal configuration of a '57-thru '61 cello as opposed to cellos '62 and newer.
You'll notice the "correct" cello in Jmoran's reply is in a PSA holder. If a person is not totally confident in his knowledge of vintage packs then I would strongly recommend purchasing only PSA packs.
Current obsession, all things Topps 1969 - 1972
I only go by what I see and hear!
<< <i>LOL, Summer are you trying to butter me up?? Thanks for the compliment but I'm just a peeon when it comes to pre 68 stuff, John >>
Ummm,,,, I think you meant "peon" -- "peeon" has an ENTIRELY different meaning. :-)
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
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Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
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<< <i>LOL, Summer are you trying to butter me up?? Thanks for the compliment but I'm just a peeon when it comes to pre 68 stuff, John >>
Ummm,,,, I think you meant "peon" -- "peeon" has an ENTIRELY different meaning. :-) >>
Well it is a golden day out
Current obsession, all things Topps 1969 - 1972
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
These brothers just made a quick $1200. It seems for the time being they might be choosing to limit the exposure time of their "bad" packs by selling them quickly in (buy it now) auctions at giveaway prices.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.