What is a type M quarter? (CPG Type G, CONECA RDV-007)
ProofArtworkonCircs
Posts: 4,223 ✭
There was no thread with type M in the title. There is now - in case anybody is searching for information on it.
This question was asked on the Bicentennial thread. Here is my answer.
<<What is a type M? >>
This was the original proof only version used on the 1968 S. It is distinctive enough to be picked up from pictures or even by touch while blindfolded.
For many years now, I have been fascinated by the many varieties of the early 1965-1974 quarters. I count 5 different circulation strike versions. They are rather minor and probably only a specialist would love them.
Yet there are also 2 proof only versions introduced in 1968 with the resumption of proof production. These are sufficiently differerent to be readily identifiable from pictures and even by touch. Incidently 2 of the circulation strike versions show up on a very few 1968 S proofs. This makes 4 versions for the 1968 S. These same 4 varieties ended up on the 1969 D quarters.
Type M (for modified) was created from a ordinary circulation strike hub by considerable touching up. It was used for the majority of 1968 S strikes. It also showed up on a minority 1969 D, 1970 D and 1970 plain and on a majority of the D mint quarters in the 1970 Mint Set.
You will find more information on this subject and pictures on two previous threads.
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=627990&highlight_key=y&keyword1=1970
Has pictures and descriptions of 4 different 1970 quarter reverse.
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=659907&highlight_key=y&keyword1=type b
Simple keys to quickly identify the different varieties.
This question was asked on the Bicentennial thread. Here is my answer.
<<What is a type M? >>
This was the original proof only version used on the 1968 S. It is distinctive enough to be picked up from pictures or even by touch while blindfolded.
For many years now, I have been fascinated by the many varieties of the early 1965-1974 quarters. I count 5 different circulation strike versions. They are rather minor and probably only a specialist would love them.
Yet there are also 2 proof only versions introduced in 1968 with the resumption of proof production. These are sufficiently differerent to be readily identifiable from pictures and even by touch. Incidently 2 of the circulation strike versions show up on a very few 1968 S proofs. This makes 4 versions for the 1968 S. These same 4 varieties ended up on the 1969 D quarters.
Type M (for modified) was created from a ordinary circulation strike hub by considerable touching up. It was used for the majority of 1968 S strikes. It also showed up on a minority 1969 D, 1970 D and 1970 plain and on a majority of the D mint quarters in the 1970 Mint Set.
You will find more information on this subject and pictures on two previous threads.
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=627990&highlight_key=y&keyword1=1970
Has pictures and descriptions of 4 different 1970 quarter reverse.
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=659907&highlight_key=y&keyword1=type b
Simple keys to quickly identify the different varieties.
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Comments
Link 1
Link 2
it has become to find the coins to even check. Never mind that they
are now heavily worn and nearly a third of them are culls. Also a sig-
nificant percentage of these early dates have been lost to attrition
in the intervening years. Circulation of these coins has been nearly
universal with nearly no coins escaping wear. This is because the
clads have been widely ignored so there are very few collections. For
the main part these coins never appear in mint sets either so the best
condition might be a mere VF and nice attractive coins tougher still.
But you hinted at an even greater obstacle to those who would col-
lect these coins; The few surviving are mostly in circulation. It was ve-
ry highly predictable that these would get much tougher to find as the
years went by. Take the '72-D type "d" for example where you need
to look at about 1700 to find an example. This wasn't a huge task
in 1972 when nearly 10% of the quarters in circulation were '72-D's.
Just looking at a few rolls a week and you'd find one soon enough.
But now only about .5% of the coins in circulation are '72-D's so you'll
have to look at about twenty times as many coins.
Of course while you're looking you can console yourself with finding
other scarce varieties.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=200307048481
This illustrates my point that type M can be readily picked out from pictures. This is a roll of 1969 D quarters ALL of which are obviousuly type M. The quarters do not appear that large, but you can see the extremly sharp inner wing/field boundary. (In that respect, you might think of type B, but the leaf does not extend above the arrow points. Other pickup points are too small in the illustration to be seen.) I bought the roll and they were all BU M's. Die life stages varied considerably. Normally 12 % of 1969 D's are type M.
Some of this stuff is starting to sink in.
The name is LEE!
I missed the Bicentennial thread........got a link ? I have a bu roll I wanna check
The name is LEE!
Correct. There is not too much meat in that one. I mainly referenced the two links that have already been mentioned in this thread.
Note the very obvious sharp edge to the inside of the wings. When the 1968 S proof quarters came out, it was quickly noticed that some were type B and that the majority were "the ordinary clad quarter". If folk were looking at these closely enough to pick out type B's, I can not understand how they could miss the fact that these weren't the ordinary circulation strikes. They had been touched up on those wing edges in a very similiar manner to type B.
http://www.teletrade.com/coins/lot.asp?auction=2757&lot=1284&imagetype=j2
Now, I would like your opinion on this illustration.
That eagle just seems to scream at me - look at my wings! That extra emphasis on the wing / field boundary is so obvious. In that respect it is very similiar or even greater than a type B. Or is it just in hindsight? I was studying these quarters for years myself and it escaped me for a long time. This design variety first appeared in 1968 and I believe that the first documentation of it was my 1982 article.
OK?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Thanks, Lee. I never thought of using reverse psychology. Perhaps folks will take a look now. I haven't stirred up much comment otherwise. If type B's are of interest, then the type M's should be. But it seems to be a terrible, terrible thing to be clad. >>
It was not intended to be reverse psychology Herb and yes, being clad is a terrible thing to which I have no idea how to address.
From a numismatic standpoint, it should not matter one hoot what a coins composition is made of and to me, it doesn't. Others have different outlooks and opinions which I suspect are from a purely speculative standpoint and the truth of the matter is that, given the dissing that clads have received over the years, those very same attitudes will be what brings some of these coins into the "light".
When folks realize just how difficult it is to locate some of these through actual effort then their true value will be appreciated and hopefully the coins will get the respect they deserve.
Another twenty or so years, and some of these will indeed be rare. My only regret is in not becoming "aware" until way late in the game. When was the last time an OBW roll of clad quarters was even offered for sale? Given the prices some of these get, you'd think that if there were thousands of them out there that some enterprising dealer would offer them for sale. I just don;t think there are that many left and hopefully, some estate sale will pull some out into the open.
Regardless, thats a nice looking ANACS coin and this is not the first time its been offered.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
It was not intended to be reverse psychology Herb and yes, being clad is a terrible thing to which I have no idea how to address.
>>
OK, I'll investigate as soon as I can recompose myself.
So is this a type M......? if so what other years have these ?
Thank you
<< <i>
When folks realize just how difficult it is to locate some of these through actual effort then their true value will be appreciated and hopefully the coins will get the respect they deserve.
Another twenty or so years, and some of these will indeed be rare. My only regret is in not becoming "aware" until way late in the game. When was the last time an OBW roll of clad quarters was even offered for sale? Given the prices some of these get, you'd think that if there were thousands of them out there that some enterprising dealer would offer them for sale. I just don;t think there are that many left and hopefully, some estate sale will pull some out into the open.
Regardless, thats a nice looking ANACS coin and this is not the first time its been offered. >>
They aren't out there. These varieties are just like all varieties of the last
100+ years; they tend to get released in small geographic areas. There
have been so extraordinarily few clads set aside that the odds are that most
varieties were not saved at all. Not even one single solitary specimen. The
ones that do exist will tend to be scarce or rare even in lower grades because
of the difficulty of finding needles in haystacks. Sure dozens or hundreds of
well worn 1972-D type b quarters will turn up in the very long run but uncircu-
lated examples were 99.9% gone even a generation and a half ago. By the
time todays VG's and F's are actually found they'll be G's and VG's.
It is this way almost across the board with moderns. There were only three
or four major locations that the coins were set aside (western PA, central IN,
southern CA et al) and if a variety didn't appear in one of these places or in
mint sets then it is rare in unc. I could tell you which ones exist but would rat-
her point out some that don't. This includes a lot of the earlier issues. One
nice thing about searching the earlier issues is that the coins were more broad-
ly saved. This mostly means a roll here and a roll there and the aggregate num-
bers aren't high but it does improve the chance for finding a lone example here
and there.
It's not so much that collectors missed the boat with clads as it is that they
are still missing the boat. Even a VG variety is highly prized and available for
the princely sum of 25c.
I'm still learning these early varieties because I never was able to find a dang
pick up point on them. I could tell them apart but just couldn't identify how. It
might take a while to work on this but the linked photo does appear to be the
class III/ type m. If memory serves these don't appear in mint sets though the
coin pictured does look vaguely like a mint set coin. This can be caused by just
being well made sometimes though.
Thank you>>
1968 S estimated 75% of production
1969 D estimated 12% of production
1970 D estimated 11.2 % plus 4.4% class III doubled dies involving type M; D coins in 1970 mint sets are mostly type M.
1970 estimated 6.3 % plus <.1 % class III doubled die.
Per centages are calculated from circulation finds. 1970 D dealer stocks are mostly type M, probably from cut up mint sets.
<< <i>Now I am confused. I thought the type M's were fairly common because they were in mint sets. Am I wrong on this? It seems like every early 70's quarter roll I go through is full of mint set coins and are primarily type M's - which frustrates me as I am looking for type B's in those rolls and NEVER finding one. >>
I was just about ready to look through my mint sets.
I'm sure ProofArtWorkonCircs can help here.
You are correct as far as 1970 D mint set and dealers' stock coins go. In my experince the 1970 Philly mint set coins were not M's.
As far as 1969 D's go, I haven't looked at that many mint sets. We will await word from cladking's search. I have not seen many 1969 D M's in dealer's stock.
It was surprising to find a complete roll of 1969 D M's on eBay. But they could not have been mint sets ones. Half, although BU, were from very tired dies.
The (3) 1970 D Ty M's that I have came from sets.................
The name is LEE!
I now wish I had not gotten carried away and put it so strongly. Actually I have a lot of respect for clads and find them very interesting.
However clads, with the bulk of other collectors, have little respect at the present moment. I predict that some day this will change.
In the meantime, I cam meditate on the career of Gregor Mendel, 1822-1884, "the Father of Genetics". His work was published in 1866, criticized by some and generally ignored until the 20th Century.