1938 Proof Jefferson 5cent die variety?

copperfan · August 9, 2008 2:23AM

In the July 28th, 2008 issue of CoinWorld there is a great article in the Collectors' Clearinghouse section about a die variety on the 1938 proof Jefferson nickel.

The article goes into the backround of the coin some, but Im curious as to what some of you here think about this newly discovered die variety for the 38 proof nickel.

19Lyds · August 9, 2008 2:50AM

Personally, I think this is a great discovery!

It also stresses the need to continually look at our coins and become familiar with what they are supposed to look like vs what they actually look like. I think this trend is catching on as more and more new varieties are being reported.

copperfan · August 9, 2008 2:56AM

I agree 100%. What I find really interesting is that Lange said "I suppose it is a collectible but I think the addition of a serif is a die state and not a variety."

I disagree.

Looking at the pictures, it looks like the serifs were there all along and the die we all know, without a bottom serif on the S in TRUST is the later die state. Possibly after a polishing....

JMHO.

CaptHenway · August 9, 2008 5:47AM

<< I agree 100%. What I find really interesting is that Lange said "I suppose it is a collectible but I think the addition of a serif is a die state and not a variety."

I disagree.

Looking at the pictures, it looks like the serifs were there all along and the die we all know, without a bottom serif on the S in TRUST is the later die state. Possibly after a polishing....

JMHO. >>

Nope, the serifs were added to the dies, both obverse and reverse, not polished off.

I am working on an update with additional information.

TD

charley · August 9, 2008 5:52AM

CaptHenway, by update do you mean that there are U.S. Mint documents that are backup to the observation, re. serifs?
Sincerely, John Curlis

CaptHenway · August 9, 2008 6:31AM

<< CaptHenway, by update do you mean that there are U.S. Mint documents that are backup to the observation, re. serifs?
Sincerely, John Curlis >>

No.
TD

copperfan · August 9, 2008 8:20AM

So the dies were without the serifs first, then struck some examples? After that, the serifs were added to the die?

Thanks for the info by the way.

Not the best picture I could find, but after about 25 minutes looking at various site, I think I found one for sale.
Possible Jefferson proof variety?????

Am I seeing the newly discovered variety?

copperfan · August 9, 2008 8:21AM

Also, any idea on production numbers?

Anyone think it will be added to the Jefferson variety set or CPG?

leothelyon · August 10, 2008 2:26PM

Well, I've just checked my 1938 proofs (I only have two,

but they are the best I've kept out of many) and I believe I have the variety. I've only ckecked the obverse lettering. The L and the two E's show the added serifs. Also the bottom N in IN show added detail or strenghten serifs. Will I add some pictures soon..........

Leo

CaptHenway · August 10, 2008 3:16PM

<< Also, any idea on production numbers?

No, but they do not seem to be rare.

Anyone think it will be added to the Jefferson variety set or CPG? >>

No.

TD

FullStepJeffs · August 10, 2008 3:17PM

Anybody got a closeup picture of this variety? I saw one being sold in an ICG holder on Teletrade recently... I wondered what it was all about, but I don't think I'll pull the trigger on one anytime soon.

Steve

stephunter · August 10, 2008 3:49PM

Does this have anything to do with the variety that Breen mentions that has over polishing that has removed part of the star on the obverse?

keets · August 10, 2008 9:44PM

the key diagnostic is the added serifs on the "S" in the word TRUST in the obverse motto.

i don't think this variety will prove as elusive as the announcement of its discovery makes it appear to be, it's more a case of the fact that it wasn't noticed for such a long time. my own perspective is that many(myself included) probably assumed that the abscence of serifs was a result of die wear, with the coins missing them being a later die state. there's another quasi-variety called the "Small Star" where the tiny star before the date on 1938 Proof Jefferson Nickels is almost imperceptible, looking like a dot with mini points. that's listed by Breen but isn't recognized by CPG because it's probably a die state novelty. it should be interesting to see how this shakes out.

the coin listed below is one i purchased for about $110 2-3 years ago at our local Coin Club Show. it struck me because it had nice color but PCGS didn't like the muted luster so they graded it PR65. turns out i have a very pretty example of a new "variety" in my collection and never knew it!!!

edit to add that this also has the "small star" mentioned but i have another 1938 which is a bit smaller, so i'm wondering if in fact it was the result of some polishing??

keets · August 10, 2008 10:02PM

the coin on the left is a 1939 Reverse of 1938 with the full star, the coin on the right is a 1938 with the partially removed star from over-polishing also displaying part of the upper serif on the S. i think it's important to note that the entire shape of the suspect "S" looks much smaller and the shape is different.

CarlWohlforth · August 10, 2008 11:59PM

I have 2 mint state 1938s. They have the serif on the top of the S in TRUST but not the bottom. Of the 3 proofs I just checked 1 is like the MS coins the other 2 have serifs on both top and bottom of the S. So in my case the "Added Serif" coins are more common.

keets · August 11, 2008 5:47AM

Carl, i think this "Variety" only pertains to the Proof issues of 1938.

CaptHenway · August 11, 2008 6:17AM

I think Carl meant that two of his three Proofs had the added serif at the bottom of the S. So far, all of the business strikes I have seen have had no serif at the bottom of the S.

As I said, these do not appear to be rare. I am preparing a press release with some additional information that may be of interest to collectors.

TD

bushmaster8 · August 11, 2008 7:08AM

They seem pretty common.

CarlWohlforth · August 11, 2008 7:33AM

<>

Yes, that is what I meant. Two of the three proofs I checked had the added serif.

I also checked my MS coins just for comparision.

FullStepJeffs · August 11, 2008 10:12AM

<< the coin on the left is a 1939 Reverse of 1938 with the full star, the coin on the right is a 1938 with the partially removed star from over-polishing also displaying part of the upper serif on the S. i think it's important to note that the entire shape of the suspect "S" looks much smaller and the shape is different.

>>

Okay, so if I read this right, the one on the left is the added serif with the large star? The one on the right is without the added serif and with the small star? Is that correct?

If so, all mine are the version on the right.

Steve

keets · August 11, 2008 11:24AM

Steve, the coin on the left is a 1939 that i posted for comparison.

i was at a club meeting this evening and had a chance to look at several Mint State 1938 and 1939 coins. all of the 1938 issues had no serif at the bottom of the "S" while every 1939 i looked at had the serif. if that's the case for all coins struck it would seem that the addition of the serif(if that's actually what was done) would have had to have been done to the Master Die making all the Working Dies.

segoja · August 11, 2008 11:43AM

I had 3 in inventory, and 2 had the serif. Can't be rare.

I had an old green label 67 and 2 64's.

leothelyon · August 11, 2008 12:04PM

I've checked the Teletrade archives and from the better pictures, some were too dark to tell but the serifs variety out numbered the non serif type 2 to 1. Depending on how early they caught the missing serifs, variety 1 (non serifs) population may be 1/3 or less of the 19,365 mintage for the 1938 proofs.
Obviously, they had to add the serifs to the master hubs, perhaps more so to the obverse. I've noticed missing serifs on the obverse while they're present on the reverse.
Another interesting thought on whether the serifs were added to working dies as well (as CaptHenway has stated), giving us several varieties. For instance, some letters may have been given serifs in one word while another word did not.
And how were the serifs added.....with a punch-like stamp or etched in which would seem to be the more difficult.
I'm looking forward to hearing from CapHenway.
One thing for certain, EDS examples would be needed to verify this non serif variety.

Leo

keets · August 12, 2008 1:43AM

ttt.

19Lyds · August 12, 2008 5:06AM

Question:

Did the US Mint use different die sets for the proof Jefferson Nickels than the business strike Jefferson nickels.

Along the same lines as the Type 2 Eisenhowers, the Type B Reverse Washington's and Wide AM cents?

leothelyon · August 12, 2008 11:36AM

And here's the article for those who don't get the NN.

Leo

lasvegasteddy · August 12, 2008 11:55AM

so if i'm to get all this right...

if you have a 38' proof without serrifs...hang onto it as it may spike in price here???

copperfan · August 12, 2008 3:42PM

Thanks for all the information on this.

So, since the term "rare" really doesnt fit here, is the 'without serif's' more scarce than the 'with serif's'?

Also, does anyone think the price will be different depending on which type it is?

RWB · August 12, 2008 11:24PM

Just to muddy the waters a bit: the mint prepared almost a dozen pre-production versions of the Jefferson nickel. Changes were very slight but were done to improve die life and strike quality. So far as records show, none of these were saved. It is possible that one or more pre-production dies got mixed with proof dies made from the approved version. So far as I know, no research has been done on this or on details of 1938 nickels. Examples of the first production run are known, however.

CaptHenway · August 13, 2008 12:55AM

<< Thanks for all the information on this.

So, since the term "rare" really doesnt fit here, is the 'without serif's' more scarce than the 'with serif's'?

Also, does anyone think the price will be different depending on which type it is? >>

Right now, not enough coins have been examined to make an informed guess as to relative populations. However, enough pieces have been reported with serifs that I can say with confidence that it is not rare. Enough pieces have been reported without serifs that I can say that they are not rare either. Whether the split is 50-50 or 40-60 or 70-30 I couldn't say.
TD

copperfan · August 13, 2008 3:07AM

I cant wait for the next article on this issue.

This situation inspired me to dig out my Jefferson set, 1938-1964. Its mostly toned Bu coins, but a few "white" ones.

The Jefferson nickel really is a nice looking coin..........

leothelyon · August 13, 2008 10:00AM

I have two very early die state examples of both varieties. The most interesting is what appears to be a letter L in the letter B of Liberty. Another is the numeral one in the date 1938. The serif at the bottom appears to be added as the length of the number one protruds below that serif.

Leo

FullStepJeffs · August 13, 2008 12:17PM

And HERE is the coin I was talking about in an ICG holder... it's actually at Heritage and still for sale.

Steve

leothelyon · August 13, 2008 2:14PM

<< And HERE is the coin I was talking about in an ICG holder... it's actually at Heritage and still for sale.

Steve >>

That example shows the letter L in the letter B of LIBERTY.

Folks, speaking of liberty, I took that and 22 pictures to show what's on my two nickels.
But you will need to click on the Jefferson Nickel Collection link in my post here to view those pictures.
It's the first album that pops up. Clicking on the album title will give you the "full view"option to the right of the pictures.

Leo

19Lyds · August 13, 2008 2:38PM

At this point in time, based upon pictures that I have seen, I have no doubts at all that the die(s) were hand engraved to offset striking weakness.

leothelyon · August 14, 2008 8:07AM

<< Just to muddy the waters a bit: the mint prepared almost a dozen pre-production versions of the Jefferson nickel. Changes were very slight but were done to improve die life and strike quality. So far as records show, none of these were saved. It is possible that one or more pre-production dies got mixed with proof dies made from the approved version. So far as I know, no research has been done on this or on details of 1938 nickels. Examples of the first production run are known, however. >>

I agree 100%. What I find really interesting is that Lange said "I suppose it is a collectible but I think the addition of a serif is a die state and not a variety."

I would like to agree one way or another with the above statements but studying the examples I have, it appears that (almost) every letter and number had some work done to each to improve the quality of strike for those letters and numbers. Whether it's the premonition non-serif variety or the serif variety, something was done to improve most of those letters and digits. So there's got to be an earlier example of the 1938 before all the improvements were made. An example that would show the weak details on the bottom of most of those letters and numbers before improvements were made. So far, no-one has posted such a coin!

RWB,
You said, So far as records show, none of these were saved. but then you say, Examples of the first production run are known, however In other words, there are no preproduction examples, examples that show little or no changes to the letters but yes, there are some early examples from the first production run after the improvements were made. Incidently, the varieties everyone seems to have and are showing here.

Leo

leothelyon · August 14, 2008 9:07AM

Here's one that's different from the two. The serif is on the letter S but it's missing on the letter N in the word IN. And what a fancy letter L we have on LIBERTY? And most of the letters look weak or botched up.

Is this the rare variety?

Leo

RWB · August 14, 2008 10:02AM

You said, So far as records show, none of these were saved. but then you say, Examples of the first production run are known, however In other words, there are no preproduction examples, examples that show little or no changes to the letters but yes, there are some early examples from the first production run after the improvements were made. Incidently[sic], the varieties everyone seems to have and are showing here.

None of the pre-production trials or patterns were saved, according Philadelphia Mint destruction records. Coins from the first production run exist and can be identified. If someone wants to know where they are and possibly compare with the items being discussed (above), let me know and I’ll provide the information.

leothelyon · February 7, 2009 10:39AM

And here's the Coneca article on the varieties.

Leo

RWB · February 7, 2009 11:45AM

I examined the uncirculated souvenir card nickel from Henry Morgenthau’s Estate. This coins is from the first bag of nickels sent to treasury. The lettering does not appear to match the idiosyncrasies of the proofs with extended serifs and strengthened lettering.

Note that engraver John Sinnock recut the word “God” on 1926 Peace dollar master dies, and also added a ray the one 1935-S dollar die. Also, some commemoratives issued after 1925 show manual strengthening of details.

Considering the late release of Jefferson nickels, there is the possibility that Sinnock used pre-production dies for some of the 1938 proofs as an expedient. We have no useful description of any of the pre-production dies.

1938 Proof Jefferson 5cent die variety?

Comments

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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