Does this activity look suspect?

vladguerrero · January 23, 2013 2:48AM

Ebay bidder, what do you guys think?

calgarycollector · January 23, 2013 3:00AM

Yes but need you to educate me as to why. I'm a ebay newbie (shillers dream) and don't know how to decipher all this.

llafoe · January 23, 2013 3:15AM

Oh no, it's a probstein thread...

1..... 2..... 3.....

bbuckner22 · January 23, 2013 3:16AM

400+ plus bids and 98% of them with one seller....what's wrong with that?

Maurice · January 23, 2013 3:19AM

The bidder is "mymolly63".

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=AllFeedback&userid=mymolly63

Even though this bidder has 98% bidding activity with this seller, with 423 total bids, I don't think it is a shiller. I may be wrong but it just looks like a guy that places a lot of bids on inexpensive items and hopes to grab a few here and there.

Maurice · January 23, 2013 3:24AM

<< 400+ plus bids and 98% of them with one seller....what's wrong with that?

>>

You are "apple383", right? If so, then this bidder purchased some stuff from you in August 2012.

Probstein123 · January 23, 2013 3:24AM

Even though this bidder has 98% bidding activity with this seller, with 423 total bids, I don't think it is a shiller. I may be wrong but it just looks like a guy that places a lot of bids on inexpensive items and hopes to grab a few here and there.
==> correct, not a consignor, we are on pace to sell over 10,000 items monthly and we have many " bottom feeders " that go for all the scraps....I'd say we have a pool of 30-50 guys who all have the same business model...we let them combine shipping up to 3 weeks
and they keep grabbing anything unwanted that goes for less than $5.00

wrestlingcardking · January 23, 2013 3:52AM

Rick, I think there are some posters that would like to hear from you regarding the Jesse Ventura BGS 9 on another thread and how a situation like that is handled from your perspective. Other examples are welcome as well. What do you do when someone consigns a card and then they end up winning their auction?

llafoe · January 23, 2013 4:01AM

<< ...and they keep grabbing anything unwanted that goes for less than $5.00 >>

Now you know... bid $5.01 on all Probstein auctions!

Probstein123 · January 23, 2013 4:13AM

Rick, I think there are some posters that would like to hear from you regarding the Jesse Ventura BGS 9
==> i wasn't aware which ebay buyer won the card until I saw the prior thread, that buyer did pay for the item and we shipped the card...

ReggieCleveland · January 23, 2013 4:29AM

<< Rick, I think there are some posters that would like to hear from you regarding the Jesse Ventura BGS 9
==> i wasn't aware which ebay buyer won the card until I saw the prior thread, that buyer did pay for the item and we shipped the card... >>

Rick, thanks for responding. What's your stance on shill bidding in your auctions?

Do you plan to take any steps in the future to prevent people from shill bidding your auctions?

Has anyone ever won their own card from you, paid your fees, and had you relist the item again?

1all · January 23, 2013 4:30AM

<< 

<< ...and they keep grabbing anything unwanted that goes for less than $5.00 >>

Now you know... bid $5.01 on all Probstein auctions!

>>

Way to go blabbermouth! Now everyone knows that we NOW need to bid $5.02 on all Probstein auctions..... Doh.... $5.03.... Doh! <wink>

csmtampa · January 23, 2013 4:32AM

Hey Rick, PM sent!

Probstein123 · January 23, 2013 4:43AM

Rick, thanks for responding. What's your stance on shill bidding in your auctions?
every auction house and consignor entity has this challenge...IMO its much worse with the catalog auction houses because you can't see
who is bidding and in many cases the auction house has access to seeing the ceiling bids...history has proven that this is very problematic....
on ebay , sellers don't have access to seeing bidders highest bids, hence the potential damage is much less...
both ebay consignors and auction houses have to deal with people having family, friends, fake IDs bidding on their items...
also, people bidding with 5 feedbacks under fake names and not paying...very difficult to manage...
ebay has an active trust and safety team that regulates everything on ebay and they intervene when they see problematic activity...
I've spoken at length with ebay management on this topic, and I suggested to them having ebay create internal software for consignors
so that " trust and safety " can better manage against false bids, shilling, and people using IP addresses on multiple accounts...

ReggieCleveland · January 23, 2013 4:47AM

<< Rick, thanks for responding. What's your stance on shill bidding in your auctions?
every auction house and consignor entity has this challenge...IMO its much worse with the catalog auction houses because you can't see
who is bidding and in many cases the auction house has access to seeing the ceiling bids...history has proven that this is very problematic....
on ebay , sellers don't have access to seeing bidders highest bids, hence the potential damage is much less...
both ebay consignors and auction houses have to deal with people having family, friends, fake IDs bidding on their items...
also, people bidding with 5 feedbacks under fake names and not paying...very difficult to manage...
ebay has an active trust and safety team that regulates everything on ebay and they intervene when they see problematic activity...
I've spoken at length with ebay management on this topic, and I suggested to them having ebay create internal software for consignors
so that " trust and safety " can better manage against false bids, shilling, and people using IP addresses on multiple accounts... >>

Thanks for responding Rick. But you didn't really answer any of my questions.

What's your stance on shill bidding in your auctions?

Do you plan to take any steps in the future to prevent people from shill bidding your auctions?

Has anyone ever won their own card from you, paid your fees, and had you relist the item again?

Sethro · January 23, 2013 4:50AM

<< Rick, thanks for responding. What's your stance on shill bidding in your auctions?
every auction house and consignor entity has this challenge...IMO its much worse with the catalog auction houses because you can't see
who is bidding and in many cases the auction house has access to seeing the ceiling bids...history has proven that this is very problematic....
on ebay , sellers don't have access to seeing bidders highest bids, hence the potential damage is much less...
both ebay consignors and auction houses have to deal with people having family, friends, fake IDs bidding on their items...
also, people bidding with 5 feedbacks under fake names and not paying...very difficult to manage...
ebay has an active trust and safety team that regulates everything on ebay and they intervene when they see problematic activity...
I've spoken at length with ebay management on this topic, and I suggested to them having ebay create internal software for consignors
so that " trust and safety " can better manage against false bids, shilling, and people using IP addresses on multiple accounts... >>

Am I reading your answer correctly? You have done nothing yourself (blocking shillers, e.g.) and do not plan on doing anything yourself to discourage/hamper shilling?

Probstein123 · January 23, 2013 4:58AM

Am I reading your answer correctly? You have done nothing yourself (blocking shillers, e.g.) and do not plan on doing anything yourself to discourage/hamper shilling?
==> no, you're not reading correctly ( please re-read what I wrote ) , and yes, I have a blocked bidders in the past ( and present ) ...but if someone has their friend's uncle open a fake account and bid , its very difficult to control...

wrestlingcardking · January 23, 2013 5:03AM

I have re-read what Reggie asked and I believe his questions were not directly answered.... in the Probstein response, it appears on ocassion he may block bidders, may talk to ebay as a large scale problem. The question of relisting a card that a consigner won themselves was clearly not answered. I do appreciate Rick responding this afternoon. Perhaps there will be a little more clarity in general soon!

Probstein123 · January 23, 2013 5:09AM

The question of relisting a card that a consigner won themselves was clearly not answered...
not with knowledge....we are on pace sell over 100,000 items this year, could someone have their uncle's friend open a fake account and then , give us the item again 12 months later ?
yes, this is possible...but we wouldn't do so with knowledge or intent....

wrestlingcardking · January 23, 2013 5:14AM

I think a great question is not so much what does the Probstein business model do in managing general shilling (we have heard it is a lot to manage and police numerous times), but a consignor who has a well documented business relationship with him won an auction from Probstein and it was reported here on the boards with the consignor apologizing. Probstein does not have to talk specifics here on this particular consignor from my perspective, but is there a general policy to block consignors who engage in this behavior? Will you relist this item for the consignor? Basically, do you take any action for those that are caught and reported to you?

wrestlingcardking · January 23, 2013 5:16AM

Some of my last post was responded to....thanks. I do think the question of a consignor clearly being caught and what your response is to the situation would be a great question to answer for the masses. Thanks again.

ReggieCleveland · January 23, 2013 5:21AM

Rick, the scenario I was asking about would involve the item that was shilled and won by the consignor never even having the item shipped back to them. Meaning, a consignor won their own auction and then contacted you with instructions to just relist the item without you shipping it back to them (they having just paid your fees for the intiial listing)?

I'm sure you have employees so I'd be happy to wait until you're able to speak with them so that you can avoid denying it now and then finding out later that such a scenario existed without your particular knowledge but with the knowledge of one of your employees and having that reflect poorly on you. Thanks again for coming on here and fielding questions.

Edited for the proper spelling of "shipping"

johnckhall · January 23, 2013 5:22AM

Here's a great idea. If you have a constructive way for Rick to accomplish this feat, call him and talk to him personally. I was a first time consignor with Rick last month and he treated me like I was a regular customer. I have much respect for a man that can run that much business in a month and still have time to call me and let me know my cards were received safely and discuss the auction with me. As soon as he starts blocking known shillers, all it takes is a new eBay account to start again. There will always be dishonest people that will try to beat the system to make an extra buck or hundred. He runs a great business model, but I don't think he is required to be the eBay police. Bottom line, if you have a solution . . . Let him know, I'm sure he'll listen.

BTW. I didn't shill my own auctions :-)

John Hall

Probstein123 · January 23, 2013 5:25AM

Meaning, a consignor won their own auction and then contacted you with instructions to just relist the item without you shipping it back to them (they having just paid your fees for the intiial listing)?
==> this has for sure never happened.....

ReggieCleveland · January 23, 2013 5:26AM

<< Here's a great idea. If you have a constructive way for Rick to accomplish this feat, call him and talk to him personally. I was a first time consignor with Rick last month and he treated me like I was a regular customer. I have much respect for a man that can run that much business in a month and still have time to call me and let me know my cards were received safely and discuss the auction with me. As soon as he starts blocking known shillers, all it takes is a new eBay account to start again. There will always be dishonest people that will try to beat the system to make an extra buck or hundred. He runs a great business model, but I don't think he is required to be the eBay police. Bottom line, if you have a solution . . . Let him know, I'm sure he'll listen.

BTW. I didn't shill my own auctions :-)

John Hall >>

John, in my opinion, I think there are a lot of people reading these boards recently that have a lot of questions and concerns. Rick coming on the board and actually answering questions for all to see goes a long way.

In regard to your post, I find it funny that Rick seems to have an abundance of time to call people and chat with them yet the implications in some of his responses is that there isn't enough time or it's too much work to actively monitor those people that shill up his auctions.

ReggieCleveland · January 23, 2013 5:28AM

<< Meaning, a consignor won their own auction and then contacted you with instructions to just relist the item without you shipping it back to them (they having just paid your fees for the intiial listing)?
==> this has for sure never happened..... >>

Thank you very much for the response, Rick. I respect the fact that you're coming on to address these issues. WOuld you be the only person with knowledge of such a scenario or is it possible someone else under your employ would have knowledge of such a scenario without you knowing about it?

wrestlingcardking · January 23, 2013 5:28AM

I do agree that it is not solely his responsibility to investigate possible shilling, my question is what happens when good evidence is presented to him....Rick did PM me and he sounds like he needs to go list items for tonight. He gave me permission to share the contents of his PM.

"I blocked the bidders account , hopefully people can manage their own behavior
i would not knowingly relist the item"

I thought this was worthwhile to share as a consignor caught bidding on their items will be blocked from how I read it.

bobbyw8469 · January 23, 2013 5:30AM

I am going to play Devil's advocate here. I recently consigned my entire 1933 Sports Kings graded set with PWCC. After I consigned it, I immediately had regrets. I paid $1,000 for the Babe Didrickson card less than 2 months before the auctions. I see the card at $600 with 30 seconds to go before the auction ends. I would absolutely love to have it back - I paid $1,000 just last month, SURELY I would pay $750 and think I was getting a steal. Is that wrong to bid on that card?

Or how about this scenario. I consign a card, and don't realize that All Star Cards is paying $850 for a particular card in a particular grade. I see the card in question for $300 less than what ASC is paying. Is that wrong to try to win the card to ship it off to ASC for a profit, even though it is my card?

Just wanted some thoughts and ideas.......

jeffcbay · January 23, 2013 5:33AM

I have an idea... since you guys are obviously doing such a great job policing Rick's auctions already, why don't you sell your services to him instead of doing it for free? Win-Win!

johnckhall · January 23, 2013 5:40AM

<< 

<< Here's a great idea. If you have a constructive way for Rick to accomplish this feat, call him and talk to him personally. I was a first time consignor with Rick last month and he treated me like I was a regular customer. I have much respect for a man that can run that much business in a month and still have time to call me and let me know my cards were received safely and discuss the auction with me. As soon as he starts blocking known shillers, all it takes is a new eBay account to start again. There will always be dishonest people that will try to beat the system to make an extra buck or hundred. He runs a great business model, but I don't think he is required to be the eBay police. Bottom line, if you have a solution . . . Let him know, I'm sure he'll listen.

BTW. I didn't shill my own auctions :-)

John Hall >>

John, in my opinion, I think there are a lot of people reading these boards recently that have a lot of questions and concerns. Rick coming on the board and actually answering questions for all to see goes a long way.

In regard to your post, I find it funny that Rick seems to have an abundance of time to call people and chat with them yet the implications in some of his responses is that there isn't enough time or it's too much work to actively monitor those people that shill up his auctions. >>

Once again, you don't offer a solution . . . Only that he should have time to police his auctions. How do you track tens of thousands upon tens of thousands of bids each month, only to catch the few dishonest shillers (unless of course you think it is terribly abused by every consignor). If you could create a software program that would accomplish this, have at it. You'd become pretty rich and all eBay houses would be legit. Until said program is in place, it seems like it is pretty tough to keep up with every bidder. I know some posters have shown that you can out a shiller with some research, but they knew exactly what they were looking for and devoted time and energy to point out ONE individual. Now put that one person into a pool of 100,000 bidders and the likelihood of detecting is small. That's quite a task for someone whose business is selling, not detective work.

CocoaBeachDodgers · January 23, 2013 5:44AM

<< I am going to play Devil's advocate here. I recently consigned my entire 1933 Sports Kings graded set with PWCC. After I consigned it, I immediately had regrets. I paid $1,000 for the Babe Didrickson card less than 2 months before the auctions. I see the card at $600 with 30 seconds to go before the auction ends. I would absolutely love to have it back - I paid $1,000 just last month, SURELY I would pay $750 and think I was getting a steal. Is that wrong to bid on that card?

Or how about this scenario. I consign a card, and don't realize that All Star Cards is paying $850 for a particular card in a particular grade. I see the card in question for $300 less than what ASC is paying. Is that wrong to try to win the card to ship it off to ASC for a profit, even though it is my card?

Just wanted some thoughts and ideas....... >>

Even though there is not bad intent in these scenarios, according to almost all AH's is that you may NOT bid on your own item!

Otherwise, there are 100 excuses shill bidders could use as reasons they bid on their own items. It is already hard enough to police without adding more possibilities.

llafoe · January 23, 2013 6:29AM

It'd be interesting to hear what steps could be implemented to guard against "safety" bidding.

It'd be difficult to know if someone is shilling your auction, unless they actually won the item, used their correct address AND paid for the item.

One person would almost have to manage all consignments, from receipt to shipping to make any connection to shill bidding. eBay doesn't offer user ID PII so I couldn't write a script to proactively look for shill bidding.

johnckhall · January 23, 2013 6:47AM

<< It'd be interesting to hear what steps could be implemented to guard against "safety" bidding.

It'd be difficult to know if someone is shilling your auction, unless they actually won the item, used their correct address AND paid for the item.

One person would almost have to manage all consignments, from receipt to shipping to make any connection to shill bidding. eBay doesn't offer user ID PII so I couldn't write a script to proactively look for shill bidding. >>

My point exactly. Sounds like it's more of an eBay issue than a Probstein issue to me.

KbKards · January 23, 2013 6:50AM

I am going to play Devil's advocate here. I recently consigned my entire 1933 Sports Kings graded set with PWCC. After I consigned it, I immediately had regrets. I paid $1,000 for the Babe Didrickson card less than 2 months before the auctions. I see the card at $600 with 30 seconds to go before the auction ends. I would absolutely love to have it back - I paid $1,000 just last month, SURELY I would pay $750 and think I was getting a steal. Is that wrong to bid on that card?

Didrickson purchased.
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=140837755018

Didrickson consigned.
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=140891778044

If I recall you sold the SK's off to help with a credit card bill. Many collectors get into situations where you need to sell cards off, and then wind up collecting the same type of cards or set in the future when the situation gets better. You bought and sold many different cards from the SK set as you were assembling and upgrading your set. You will undoubtedly want to start the set again or continue to buy and sell cards from a set you're very knowledgeable about as a dealer when you see good deals come by. If you sold the Didrickson card to somebody, and they listed it for sale or auction, you probably wouldn't hesitate to try to buy it again if there was money to be made. You don't benefit in any way if you don't win the auction. The only difference with consigning it is that you can benefit by driving the price with your bids even if you don't win the card. Even though you were bidding on it hoping to win it there is a gray area there that people will either understand or dislike.

Maurice · January 23, 2013 6:57AM

<< Didrickson purchased.
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=140837755018

Didrickson consigned.
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=140891778044 >>

So Bobby did in fact bid on the card he consigned. The $600 bid. Here we go again.

BrownBlueGreen · January 23, 2013 7:07AM

Calling an obvious sh..I mean customer a bottom feeder? Classy

Aric · January 23, 2013 7:30AM

Rick, will you continue to accept consignments from Mike?

Cakes · January 23, 2013 7:37AM

<< Calling an obvious sh..I mean customer a bottom feeder? Classy >>

Maybe you should quote who you are talking about. I have no dog in this fight but what is so wrong with the term bottom feeder, he gave examples and I don't think he insulted anyone.

handyman · January 23, 2013 7:40AM

Catfish is one of my favorite meals. Nothing wrong with a bottom feeder. Its just a term.

vladguerrero · January 23, 2013 7:43AM

<< we have many " bottom feeders " that go for all the scraps....I'd say we have a pool of 30-50 guys who all have the same business model. >>

I get that but as a business model why would it be in there best interest to execute this business model with only one seller? Wouldn't it be in their business' best interest to do this with other consignors/high volume sellers?

It's just a weird situation as stated 400+ bids with 98% same seller. I agree it doesn't look like an outright shiller (I think there was on one item with 4 or more bids), looks more like an auction fluffer. lol

There was a thread with another interesting bid pattern yesterday but I can't find it today.

PeteZaria · January 23, 2013 7:48AM

<< 

<< Didrickson purchased.
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=140837755018

Didrickson consigned.
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=140891778044 >>

So Bobby did in fact bid on the card he consigned. The $600 bid. Here we go again. >>

Ruh roh!

vladguerrero · January 23, 2013 7:51AM

Oh god, please make it stop.

Stone193 · January 23, 2013 7:51AM

10,000 sales per month.

I find it tedious scrolling down 200 items for sale.

Ebay would have to come up with a program to "detect" potential shill bidding.

Blaming Probstein for shill bidders is like blaming Budweiser for drunk drivers IMO.

Sethro · January 23, 2013 7:55AM

From what I have seen, nobody is blaming him for shilling. What people seem concerned about is when presented with evidence of shilling in his auctions, Probstein puts the onus on eBay, or the bidders themselves. As if he has no responsibility as a seller in keeping his reputation from getting tarnished.

Time4aGansett · January 23, 2013 8:08AM

One way to fix it would be ceasing business with the exposed individual, instead of adding more new consignments after this individual has been caught.

1all · January 23, 2013 8:13AM

<< If you could create a software program that would accomplish this, have at it. You'd become pretty rich and all eBay houses would be legit. >>

Well... You would be rich because eBay would purchase it from you for big bucks as long as you never speak of the software ever again. Way too much money to be made with "safety bids".

Stone193 · January 23, 2013 8:15AM

<< From what I have seen, nobody is blaming him for shilling. What people seem concerned about is when presented with evidence of shilling in his auctions, Probstein puts the onus on eBay, or the bidders themselves. As if he has no responsibility as a seller in keeping his reputation from getting tarnished. >>

Hiya Sethro

When I said "blame for shill bidding" - I was alluding to "his" part in the process - as I said - with 10,000 items per - to police that? If done manually - would be immensely time consuming.

Now - I'm sure if anyone here saw something flaky and contacted him? He would respond to the problem if he concurred.

This is not my first Rodeo - so I'm sure some will agree - that some here - are just in it to put a "rub" on the guy.

And last - Rick's a pretty savvy businessman/salesman - do you really think he would jeopardize everything he's built for a few extra quid?

BrownBlueGreen · January 23, 2013 8:18AM

I had about 15 items on my watch list that were being sold by Probstein. I just deleted them all. Thanks.

Sethro · January 23, 2013 8:22AM

<< 

And last - Rick's a pretty savvy businessman/salesman - do you really think he would jeopardize everything he's built for a few extra quid? >>

Hey Stone!

This is what I don't understand. I am not saying he's doing anything wrong. As a savvy businessperson, I would think the very first thing you would do when these concerns were raised would be to let everyone know that you have researched and confirmed what happened and those who have bid up their own auctions have been banned. Maybe then saying although it is impossible to check 100,000 listings, he will now have employees doing routine spot checks for suspicious activity or something like that. Maybe even asking the awesome detectives on the board for help in how to uncover this kind of activity, you know, getting the community involved. Just my thoughts. By blaming others, it looks bad to me.

Stone193 · January 23, 2013 8:32AM

<< 

<< 

And last - Rick's a pretty savvy businessman/salesman - do you really think he would jeopardize everything he's built for a few extra quid? >>

Hey Stone!

This is what I don't understand. I am not saying he's doing anything wrong. As a savvy businessperson, I would think the very first thing you would do when these concerns were raised would be to let everyone know that you have researched and confirmed what happened and those who have bid up their own auctions have been banned. Maybe then saying although it is impossible to check 100,000 listings, he will now have employees doing routine spot checks for suspicious activity or something like that. Maybe even asking the awesome detectives on the board for help in how to uncover this kind of activity, you know, getting the community involved. Just my thoughts. By blaming others, it looks bad to me. >>

I totally get your point and will defer to Rick on some of your concerns.

On the business end? I run a business - just like Rick - and you would be surprised how - even adding one employee - can be a budget buster.

Moreover, how prevalent is shilling with his auctions? One thing I would suggest to Rick? Perhaps they can "scan" the higher priced cards - plus - 2600 items are actually for auction - so checking the "higher end" cards would not be a bad idea?

Sethro · January 23, 2013 8:42AM

I should have been a little clearer. I didn't mean to add a full time employee to scan for shilling. Just have the employees he already employs do periodic checks.

Does this activity look suspect?

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