Anyone ever see a damaged die like this one?

ThePennyLady · July 8, 2010 7:08AM

Just got this photo back from Todd. As you can see, it has an interesting die chunk in the middle of the reverse. I found this 1862 Indian cent at the San Francisco Mint Show and gave it to Rick to attribute. He said it was a new variety, and gave it a Snow 9. I posted the new attribution page of this coin (and another new 1862 variety I found) a few weeks ago, but here it is again. Has anyone ever seen one like this before?

ThePennyLady · July 9, 2010 1:15AM

I posted this on another forum, and had some interesting discussions on what a cud actually is, and whether this type of thing qualifies as a "cud" or "die damage." Any thoughts here on what a cud really means vs. die damage?

astrorat · July 9, 2010 1:28AM

Interesting, Charmy.

My initial thought was an internal major die break (cud). But after thinking about it a bit more, I agree it is a damaged die.* An internal major die break should not have left the "E" and the top of the "N" intact, but would have likely included them as part of the die failure (break). Also, the die does not appear to be stressed to the point where an internal major die break would occur. I would have anticipated seeing more evidence of die wear, die breaks/cracks, or die fatigue elsewhere on the coin.

Very cool, nonetheless.

Lane

*Then I actually read Rick's description!

CaptHenway · July 9, 2010 1:31AM

My guess would be that it is a stress fracture, or die chip, rather than a hole left by some sort of impact or damage to the die. However, I would like to see the coin in hand before saying that for sure. When located in the central part of a die, rather than out near the edge where cuds are typically found, this would be called an "internal cud."
Nice!
TD

Sonorandesertrat · July 9, 2010 1:33AM

Most collapsing dies begin to fail on/near the edges because of the forces involved---that is why cuds are fairly common. A different manifestation of die fatigue is a coin with a slight depression inside the rim, following it on occasion all the way around the face of a coin. A few months ago, RWB posted a very interesting photo of a Peace dollar that exhibited this. Occasionally, metal failure occurs closer to the center of the die face (because of a chip or even local
collapse). The 1855 large cent-knob on ear variety is an example. I also have a so-called dollar--General Tom Thumb with a reverse that has an oblong, balloon-like, raised spot on the reverse.

CaptHenway · July 9, 2010 1:43AM

I question the die damage theory because die steel is pretty darn hard, and it would be very difficult to impress something that deep into die steel unless it was done during the hubbing operation when the die steel has been softened somewhat.

Also, if you did displace that much die steel with an impact of great force, there should be a crater effect around the depression.

--

Having read what I just wrote above, what do you think of this: The reverse die received its initial hubbing impression, was taken out and annealed, and when it was put back into the hubbing press a small scrap of die steel fell onto the partially-hubbed die. The hub came down and impressed that scrap steel into the die, driving the corner of the E deeper into the die without totally obliterating it.

Does it look like the top of the N of CENT is slightly distorted as well?

TD

kurtdog · July 9, 2010 2:19AM

I'd call that simply struck-through debris, but at the hubbing stage of the die. It was on the die when the die received one of the strikes from the hub. If you'll look closely at that lower-left corner of the impacted E you'll see the outline of the debris running over that corner.

CaptHenway · July 9, 2010 2:58AM

<< I'd call that simply struck-through debris, but at the hubbing stage of the die. It was on the die when the die received one of the strikes from the hub. If you'll look closely at that lower-left corner of the impacted E you'll see the outline of the debris running over that corner. >>

I think I said that........

RichieURich · July 9, 2010 3:09AM

Nice discovery, Charmy!

It must be scarce because it's too obvious to not have been discovered until now!

kurtdog · July 9, 2010 3:19AM

<< 

<< I'd call that simply struck-through debris, but at the hubbing stage of the die. It was on the die when the die received one of the strikes from the hub. If you'll look closely at that lower-left corner of the impacted E you'll see the outline of the debris running over that corner. >>

I think I said that........

>>

You're right, your last theory was, "a small scrap of die steel fell onto the partially-hubbed die." That's close enough. Credit me with an assist, how's that?

TomB · July 9, 2010 3:46AM

It's the little known spawning salmon variety.

kurtdog · July 9, 2010 4:13AM

<< It's the little known spawning salmon variety.

>>

I think I said that. Or if I didn't I think I was thinking of saying that.

CaptHenway · July 9, 2010 12:47PM

ttt

SUMORADA · July 9, 2010 1:48PM

No way......nope I'm not going to say it.....

SeaEagleCoins · July 9, 2010 2:00PM

CaptHenway · July 10, 2010 12:49PM

<bumpus>
Still waiting for Rick Snow to chime in on my theory.
TD

bolivarshagnasty · July 10, 2010 1:13PM

<< No way......nope I'm not going to say it..... >>

Was thinking the same thing.

Shag

19Lyds · July 10, 2010 2:35PM

<< No way......nope I'm not going to say it..... >>

Say what?

Numis · July 10, 2010 3:00PM

Those are sound theories regarding a damaged die but I'm going with the theory it was done intentionally by a mint employee who had a sense of humor. An X-rated one at that.

devious · July 10, 2010 5:16PM

<< 

<< No way......nope I'm not going to say it..... >>

Say what?

>>

What he thinks it looks like. . .

seanq · July 10, 2010 10:53PM

<< 

<< No way......nope I'm not going to say it..... >>

Was thinking the same thing.

Shag >>

Maybe we should call this the Bill Clinton Reverse variety

Sean Reynolds

CaptHenway · July 10, 2010 11:41PM

He's saying that it needs an Extra Fig Leaf...........

ThePennyLady · July 10, 2010 11:53PM

Only you boys could see something like that in a damaged die! .....

EagleEye · July 11, 2010 3:33AM

One theory: The rounded appearence of the cud tells me that the die may have had a hidden defect that may have manifested itself when the die was hardened, after it was hubbed. The hubbing process would shape the metal below the surface as well as on the surface. This is why part of the E is present on the "top" of the cud (below the original surface of the die) The die broke off when the metal shrunk.

I listed this as a die defect, pre-hardening die damage. which it could be as well.

ThePennyLady · July 12, 2010 12:47AM

Thanks Rick, and everyone else for their thoughts and explanations. It's very interesting to try and figure out what happened behind the scenes to create coins with cuds and other die issues.

kurtdog · July 12, 2010 1:35AM

Yeah, well, I don't care what anybody says, I still think it's a salmon.

Anyone ever see a damaged die like this one?

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