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For those still thinking Tonedcointrader got duped by the AT coins
kryptonitecomics
Posts: 9,185 ✭
I keep seeing forum member new and old stating that Scott was probably duped by a coin doctor and we know that Alex stated he wasn't the creator of these coins but rather just a source for Scott. Alex wouldn't divulge his connections to these coins becuase....
Alex is the doctor and Scott was knowingly in league with the doctor.....there were no smoke and mirrors. My source and I were trying to get scott to do the right thing and come clean but since he intends to let this charade continue to protect what is left of his reputation I now feel compelled to post this.
What we have here is a copy of a PM conversation between Scott and another member of the PCGS forums who wanted to buy some toned coins from Scott. Please read it thoroughly as Scott admits that Nicetoning is the coin doctor.....he also admited the coin doctors are this good and provides specific instructions on how to submit these AT coins to the tpgs to avoid detection. He also states that the coins he was sending in may all bag including his 1904-O and that the coins may have already been submitted in the past by Alex.
So let's be clear...he knew the coins were AT and would probably bag but he sent them in anyway becuase he knew he would make some serious dollars if the coins ever graded. Here is the 1904-O in question....surprise surprise.....I guess it did grade $$$$$$$
Any questions?
The now famous 1904-O he submitted
Alex is the doctor and Scott was knowingly in league with the doctor.....there were no smoke and mirrors. My source and I were trying to get scott to do the right thing and come clean but since he intends to let this charade continue to protect what is left of his reputation I now feel compelled to post this.
What we have here is a copy of a PM conversation between Scott and another member of the PCGS forums who wanted to buy some toned coins from Scott. Please read it thoroughly as Scott admits that Nicetoning is the coin doctor.....he also admited the coin doctors are this good and provides specific instructions on how to submit these AT coins to the tpgs to avoid detection. He also states that the coins he was sending in may all bag including his 1904-O and that the coins may have already been submitted in the past by Alex.
So let's be clear...he knew the coins were AT and would probably bag but he sent them in anyway becuase he knew he would make some serious dollars if the coins ever graded. Here is the 1904-O in question....surprise surprise.....I guess it did grade $$$$$$$
Any questions?
The now famous 1904-O he submitted
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Comments
<< <i>Any questions? >>
Yeah, instead of just outing the doctors, wouldn't it have been more effective to start a stickering service?
<< <i>
<< <i>Any questions? >>
Yeah, instead of just outing the doctors, wouldn't it have been more effective to start a stickering service?
Yes but I am too broke to fund it
<ATC>
This so reminds me of old Salem and the witch hunts.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I don't see anything in there that is incriminating other than he "thinks" he is a good doctor. Everything else is simply the same logic that has been repeated on this forum ad nauseum.
This so reminds me of old Salem and the witch hunts. >>
Ditto!
<< <i>Isn't there a prohibition about posting PMs? >>
No
<< <i>
<< <i>Isn't there a prohibition about posting PMs? >>
No >>
Ya sure???
Russ, NCNE
Empty Nest Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Isn't there a prohibition about posting PMs? >>
No >>
Ya sure??? >>
I'm unaware of any specific rule against it but it's considered to be bad form to post PM's without getting the other party's permission. I'd make an exception if it's to expose a coin doctor.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>Hey I posted the truth.....if folks want to walk around with blinders on then they are well within their rights
Well I have a source in Washington (who wishes to remain anonomous)......................blah blah blah.
No blinders here just plenty of experience in watching these witch hunts that present absolutely no evidence other than heresay and inuendo's.
The name is LEE!
"Son, we live in a world that has coins and those coins need to be doctored by men with chemicals. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Kryptonitecomics? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for doctored coins and curse the coin doctors; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that coin doctoring , while tragic, probably makes money and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, makes money. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me in that basement, you need me in that basement. We use words like sulfur, gas, and color. We use them as the backbone of a life trying to color something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who buys and enjoys toned coins and then questions the manner in which I provide them. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a coin and doctor it. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entilted to."
Perhaps we are going about this color-y coin thing all wrong.
We are focusing so much on the source of the coins. But what about the demand? If we do not address the demand, how can the problem be ultimately solved?
Perhaps we should take a page out of the Book Of The War On Drugs and read it.
The doctors are only providing a service. It's the consumers of these color-y coins causing the demand.
Maybe we need coin-courts in order to try cases of egregious color-y coin buying.
And then we can put the offenders into coin-jails so that they can serve their time, repent and reform back into productive members of numismatic society.
In the remote central valley, we could build the new "Santa Rick-O Jail" to the most modern and untarnished standards.
<< <i>The coin doctor's response:
"Son, we live in a world that has coins and those coins need to be doctored by men with chemicals. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Kryptonitecomics? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for doctored coins and curse the coin doctors; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that coin doctoring , while tragic, probably makes money and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, makes money. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me in that basement, you need me in that basement. We use words like sulfur, gas, and color. We use them as the backbone of a life trying to color something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who buys and enjoys toned coins and then questions the manner in which I provide them. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a coin and doctor it. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entilted to."
Nice job
Also, on a side note... I'm not a lawyer (and perhaps Sanction II or another lawyer poster here can speak to this)...but you could be exposing yourself legally by posting defamatory threads, not to mention the PMs. There may be something actionable here if can be proven that you are damaging someone's business with no real proof of your claims. I don't know how big a player this guy is but if I were in his shoes and the allegations were false I'd be looking into it. FWIW.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>
<< <i>The coin doctor's response:
"Son, we live in a world that has coins and those coins need to be doctored by men with chemicals. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Kryptonitecomics? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for doctored coins and curse the coin doctors; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that coin doctoring , while tragic, probably makes money and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, makes money. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me in that basement, you need me in that basement. We use words like sulfur, gas, and color. We use them as the backbone of a life trying to color something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who buys and enjoys toned coins and then questions the manner in which I provide them. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a coin and doctor it. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entilted to."
Nice job
So, the original purpose of Coin Doctors, then, was to serve as protection for the Officers from the Sailors? Amazing! Thanks!
JMO
AL
<< <i>Wow. You sure read a lot into those PMs. Sounds to me like he was warning the other party that coin doctors are getting good enough to dupe high end toners so to be careful...also he's commenting that you shouldn't send in a large group of toners at one time because the TPGs might look at them with a jaundiced eye due to all the doctoring going on. At best I read that he suspects this other guy of being a doctor but I see nothing here showing any proof of collusion as you claim.
Also, on a side note... I'm not a lawyer (and perhaps Sanction II or another lawyer poster here can speak to this)...but you could be exposing yourself legally by posting defamatory threads, not to mention the PMs. There may be something actionable here if can be proven that you are damaging someone's business with no real proof of your claims. I don't know how big a player this guy is but if I were in his shoes and the allegations were false I'd be looking into it. FWIW. >>
Since the allegations as you put it.....are true....I'll take my chances
For those that aren't reading into it what I and a lot of others are....please by all means continue to purchase toned coins with this similar look.....I promise I won't try to stop you
For those reading this post and saying...this proves nothing.....please give me more credit than that.....
You are reading this post in a vacumm and there are 3 other threads that took place on the TCCS forums that present even more facts. In truth the coin doctor himself (nicetoning) started a thread over there to say that Tonedcointrader was totally innocent and had no idea the coins were AT....then Scott took the ball and ran with it by saying that he would never knowingly send in AT coins becuase it would be a waste of money. However his messages here point that out to be a complete lie....so he lied about knowing these coins were AT and he lied about sending them in to the tpg with said knowledge.
If you collect toned coins or care about the integrity of our hobby then I urge you to review all of the evidence and make an educated decision. If you still disagree then so be it...I have done what I can to try to protect a slice of the hobby that I care about and I am passionate about. I assure you I make no apologies for that
Like Russ said, real potential here
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>All I see is a crayola colors Morgan that slipped by the graders that I would never buy regardless. >>
I love toners but would run the other way from the obverse on that Morgan!!
I just want to publicly thank adamlaneus for changing his avatar to a more "eye-friendly" pic... that last one just gave me the creeps...
<< <i>For those that aren't reading into it what I and a lot of others are....please by all means continue to purchase toned coins with this similar look.....I promise I won't try to stop you
To try and take any ambiguity out of it, has anyone asked Tonedcointrader what he meant by his PM?
Because while this certainly does call into question the veracity of some of Tonedcointrader's comments on the other forum, I must admit this isn't the "smoking gun" I was expecting...Mike
<< <i>Welly intellwesting! Anyone know if this is being talked about on other forums? Links? >>
for your reading and viewing displeasure......
To the members of this board (TCCS)
The coin doctor speaks out
What a difference a grading service makes
Hear hear!
(edit) ... and thanks for the post and links, Shane.
<< <i>You are reading this post in a vacumm and there are 3 other threads that took place on the TCCS forums that present even more facts. In truth the coin doctor himself (nicetoning) started a thread over there to say that Tonedcointrader was totally innocent and had no idea the coins were AT....then Scott took the ball and ran with it by saying that he would never knowingly send in AT coins becuase it would be a waste of money. However his messages here point that out to be a complete lie....so he lied about knowing these coins were AT and he lied about sending them in to the tpg with said knowledge. >>
For those interested, here are the threads Shane is referring to:
What a difference a grading service makes
To the members of this board
The coin doctor speaks out.
Also, here is a thread on this forum discussing the above:
Prior PCGS thread on this topic.
<< <i>
<< <i>For those that aren't reading into it what I and a lot of others are....please by all means continue to purchase toned coins with this similar look.....I promise I won't try to stop you
To try and take any ambiguity out of it, has anyone asked Tonedcointrader what he meant by his PM?
Because I must admit this isn't the "smoking gun" I was expecting...Mike >>
Mike, Do you really expect him to come on here and be honest about his transgressions? In light of what has already been posted.....I think the PM's speak for themselves....I also think this is as close to damning prrof as you will find becuase he is not going to go out on a limb and be honest. At least with manofcoins we had the before and after pictures of slabbed coins that were AT'd in the holder......we are not going to have that in this case because these were raw coins purchased by Alex and cooked up.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>For those that aren't reading into it what I and a lot of others are....please by all means continue to purchase toned coins with this similar look.....I promise I won't try to stop you
To try and take any ambiguity out of it, has anyone asked Tonedcointrader what he meant by his PM?
Because I must admit this isn't the "smoking gun" I was expecting...Mike >>
Mike, Do you really expect him to come on here and be honest about his transgressions? In light of what has already been posted.....I think the PM's speak for themselves....I also think this is as close to damning prrof as you will find becuase he is not going to go out on a limb and be honest. At least with manofcoins we had the before and after pictures of slabbed coins that were AT'd in the holder......we are not going to have that in this case because these were raw coins purchased by Alex and cooked up. >>
Perhaps not, but as they say there are always two sides to every story and in fairness we should at least ask. The way I read things, he clearly lied about being "taken advantage of" as evidenced by the PMs, the rest of your conclusions (concerning Alex being the Dr.) seem to be a bit hasty. Again, I tend to interpret things the way you have, but I would at least like to hear the other side to the story....Mike
Now I'm too tired to comment.
Somehow he has been constantly receiving AT'd coins for some time now. I have seen his BST posts for the last 1-2 years, and most the coins have neon toning just like the coins in question. I have always considered the toning on his coins "questionable" at best and walked the other way.
So either he is cooking up these coins himself, or has a single source that is doing the dirty work for him. I can't prove either or.
Maybe this member will step up to the plate and knock one out the park. Come on Alex you can do it
As I said (here) on CU, these posts can be interpreted in different ways. I'm not necessarily saying he's lily white, but I'm still seeing no real proof of any collusion, only that he bought coins from this guy and some slabbed. I bought a T2 $1 gold many moons ago that ended up bb for being bad...does that mean I am in league with the guy that made it? By your reasoning it does, especially if I PM someone that "fakers are getting better and some stuff is slabbing so be careful". See where I'm going with this?
I really don't have a dog in this hunt other than being a dealer who also collects toners personally...I dislike AT pieces and those who foist them on the unwary...but like I said, no hard evidence of any collusion here imo. I'd like to hear something definitive by the other side in response to all this.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>The coin doctor's response:
"Son, we live in a world that has coins and those coins need to be doctored by men with chemicals. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Kryptonitecomics? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for doctored coins and curse the coin doctors; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that coin doctoring , while tragic, probably makes money and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, makes money. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me in that basement, you need me in that basement. We use words like sulfur, gas, and color. We use them as the backbone of a life trying to color something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who buys and enjoys toned coins and then questions the manner in which I provide them. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a coin and doctor it. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entilted to."
Hahahahaha Very good!
Camelot
<< <i>The coin doctor's response:
"Son, we live in a world that has coins and those coins need to be doctored by men with chemicals. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Kryptonitecomics? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for doctored coins and curse the coin doctors; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that coin doctoring , while tragic, probably makes money and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, makes money. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me in that basement, you need me in that basement. We use words like sulfur, gas, and color. We use them as the backbone of a life trying to color something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who buys and enjoys toned coins and then questions the manner in which I provide them. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a coin and doctor it. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entilted to."
THAT was an amazing post.
<< <i>I posted this earlier on tccs boards, and will post it here as well.
As I said (here) on CU, these posts can be interpreted in different ways. I'm not necessarily saying he's lily white, but I'm still seeing no real proof of any collusion, only that he bought coins from this guy and some slabbed. I bought a T2 $1 gold many moons ago that ended up bb for being bad...does that mean I am in league with the guy that made it? By your reasoning it does, especially if I PM someone that "fakers are getting better and some stuff is slabbing so be careful". See where I'm going with this?
I really don't have a dog in this hunt other than being a dealer who also collects toners personally...I dislike AT pieces and those who foist them on the unwary...but like I said, no hard evidence of any collusion here imo. I'd like to hear something definitive by the other side in response to all this. >>
OJ's jury said essentially the same thing as it relates to murder.