Baltimore Show Review, CAC Inspection, the Boys of CRO & Laura of Legend
TomB
Posts: 21,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
If nothing else, I would imagine that the title of this thread would at least generate some traffic.
This past week I had some time to pursue numismatic endeavors, which allowed me to spend significant cumulative time with each enterprise or entity listed above. My experience at the Baltimore show will come first, then those who abhor anything relating to CAC can simply skip the final paragraph or two. I had an early bird dealer badge for Baltimore and stayed throughout all of Thursday through early Friday afternoon. The show was slow and lightly attended during this time, but this is not too surprising given the current economic climate and the fact that the summer Baltimore show is easily the least well attended of all the Baltimore gatherings.
Dave and John, the Boys of CRO, allowed me to keep my numismatic carp behind their table and they also allowed easy and repeated access to my things, which meant that I was free to roam the floor unencumbered while their cumulative numismatic IQ was in jeopardy of falling simply from their proximity to my coins. As always, their inventory was quite nice and they were beyond reasonably patient with me while going through each coin that might be attractive to me. After that, I hit the bourse proper and noted that it was almost empty of folks in the aisles. Aside from this being the summer show during poor economic times, I can’t help but think that the relatively new $100 entrance fee for these hours might persuade some folks to arrive later when it is free to enter.
Pleasant conversations were easily had all over the floor and folks seemed quite happy to be at the show, which is in stark contrast to some other down periods in this hobby-industry and might be interpreted to be a good sign. I had one coin to sell and stopped by Laura’s table whereupon she proceeded to perform a very entertaining skit regarding dealers who are afraid to purchase any nice coins at the moment before she turned to Jose and simply said “Cut TomB a check for whatever he wants”. It was a nice interaction and two coins in their inventory that I thought were especially attractive in-hand included the 1857 PCGS MS67 Seated half-dime and a WA Seated half in PCGS MS66.
My search across the floor for material to buy was especially fruitful with the addition to my type set of a Classic half-cent in MS64RB as well as a Type I Buffalo nickel in PR66. Both coins are really very nice and I am certain I paid strong for them, but I expect to own them for quite a while, too. There was one coin, however, that I did not buy and that I have been mildly kicking myself about since I left the show. It was a piece that I already own for my type set and the particular coin that I now own would be in any virtual Bo20 that I might build. Nonetheless, the coin that I passed on was exceptionally attractive with unmitigated originality. This may be a piece that I search online for in the next few days and, if found, may make an attempt to purchase. Note that in the years that I have been in this hobby-industry, there have been precious few pieces that I kicked myself about later.
Even though there were very few folks in attendance, I was still able to meet up and exchange stories with many close friends who happen to be board members and this includes oreville, michael, cohodk/chinook, ColonialCoinUnion, CoinRaritiesOnline, wayneherndon, BigMoose, airplanenut, coinguy1/MarkFeld and no doubt others that I am currently forgetting. Additionally, a healthy mix of knowledgeable folks who do not frequent the boards were in attendance, too, which may also be a good sign for those of us willing and able to ride out the current environment.
There was less generic gold on the bourse than I had expected, but I do not know how well any gold was selling at the show. There was also far less choice material than I can recall seeing at most shows and I take this to mean that most of the better pieces are already placed and are not looking for new homes at these price levels. Whether or not these coins stay placed during a possible extended downturn is not for me to know at the moment, but they were not overly represented on the floor. One disturbing thing that I noticed was a number of what I would consider, in my opinion only, AT (or at least not original) coins in NGC and PCGS holders. There weren’t many. In fact I think I counted only four, but they were Barber/Seated/Reeded Edge coins that did not pass muster for me. This is likely a smaller number of coins of this nature than I typically see at a show, but it still bothered me quite a bit. Please note that I can’t prove any of these aren’t original, but my opinion was made up upon viewing them.
Lots of early dollars were to be had in PCGS and NGC holders, but I didn’t like the look of most of these coins, either. ANACS holdered coins appear to be a vanishing breed, especially coins in the white holders. In contrast, CAC stickers look to be taking root since not only were there the expected folks laden with CAC-stickered slabs, but there also were a sprinkling of CAC stickers in many other cases, too. I heard more than one dealer comment that they were getting killed up to that point in the show, but remember that I left by early afternoon on Friday so things may have changed substantially during Saturday. There was a recent thread about overvalued or overhyped coinage and the 1916 SLQ was listed as one piece. I stopped counting the certified examples of this date once I got to 14-pieces. However, if someone wants a truly exquisite, original circulated example of the date they should contact Jack Beymer since he has a PCGS EF40 that is terrific. There were also a plethora of certified (primarily PCGS) 1932-D WQs in MS63 through a single MS65 I noticed on the floor and some of them were even quite attractive. This is not a rare coin, but finding PCGS graded pieces in this grade range and will positive eye appeal is not always an easy thing to do on the bourse.
So-called dollars looked to have slowed quite a bit more than the rest of the field. One interesting piece I was able to examine was the Utopia bimetallic piece in an NGC MS64 holder. It was quite cool. Gobrecht dollars were much less visible on the floor than in earlier shows even though there were still perhaps five pieces throughout all dates and grade ranges. An incredibly neat piece on the floor was a reverse engraved 1864 Seated half that had an image of a wonderful dog atop a box. Truly very cool, but it was not related to anything else in my collection so it stayed with the dealer. From my conversations with several dealers, it appears that circulated Lincoln cents from the early years are not selling as well as many folks thought they would be given the centennial and the popularity of Lincolns. Quality Seated and Barber type was almost non-existent.
No doubt there are things that I forgot to write, but they may come back to me later. Some people might state that since the market is slow that they were just as well off not attending the show, but I believe that the social networking factor, the ability to offer coins live and the in-hand inspection of as many coins as one wishes to look at more than makes up for a slow market.
Prior to the show I was able to meet up with the Boys of CRO and picked up a very neat Seated half-dime for my type set. Since I already had the type represented, I decided to sell my previous piece and that was the coin sold to Laura (mentioned earlier). The Seated half-dime that I bought from CRO is below and makes the thread worthwhile since there is now an image of a coin in it.
Also prior to the show, I was allowed to go to CAC headquarters to meet up with JA and njcoincrank. I have known njcoincrank for many years so this was a social visit as well as an inspection of my coins. Both JA and njcoincrank were more than generous with their time and knowledge given my position within the hobby-industry and I stayed there for half the day. Several months prior to this meeting I wrote out my prediction of the CAC sticker status for each slabbed coin in my collection and sent these predictions to Mark Feld. At that time I had not known the rate for green stickers or the rate for gold stickers. If I had I might have made my predictions more conservative, but then again I might not have done so since I was attempting to be brutally honest with my coins. Also, since that time I have sold a few pieces as well as added a few others. JA and njcoincrank stated that the overall sticker rate is somewhat less than 40%, which I would interpret as very close to 40%. The gold sticker rate is approximately one coin in twelve hundred submitted (0.083%). Essentially, the 40% sticker rate is made up entirely of green stickers. The volume of coins that CAC inspects also surprised me since it was higher than I might have guessed and this would mean to me that there is more market penetration or acceptance of CAC then some might hope. JA mentioned that the early dollars (FH, DB and Gobrecht) had the lowest sticker rate of any niche within the field and that most of the coins that failed to garner a sticker weren't even close to obtaining the sticker. Additionally, I asked JA if there was a single evaluation standard for all coins or if there was one standard for NGC graded coins and another for PCGS graded coins. The answer is that there is a single standard (the CAC standard) used to evaluate all coins regardless of certification company. JA and njcoincrank mentioned that I could share this information with the boards if I chose and I believe this is an appropriate place to put this.
Edited to add the following paragraph for clarity-
The overall CAC sticker rate for all coins submitted to CAC is just under 40% with only one coin in twelve hundred (0.083%) receiving the gold sticker. However, my collection of 76-coins had a CAC sticker rate of 96.1% and a gold sticker rate of one coin in 15.2-coins (6.6%). I write this to let folks realize that if one attempts to know the niche that they are buying in and if one buys over time and without hurry that it may be possible to obtain relatively nice pieces. I received 68 green stickers and five gold stickers in my 76-coin submission.
This past week I had some time to pursue numismatic endeavors, which allowed me to spend significant cumulative time with each enterprise or entity listed above. My experience at the Baltimore show will come first, then those who abhor anything relating to CAC can simply skip the final paragraph or two. I had an early bird dealer badge for Baltimore and stayed throughout all of Thursday through early Friday afternoon. The show was slow and lightly attended during this time, but this is not too surprising given the current economic climate and the fact that the summer Baltimore show is easily the least well attended of all the Baltimore gatherings.
Dave and John, the Boys of CRO, allowed me to keep my numismatic carp behind their table and they also allowed easy and repeated access to my things, which meant that I was free to roam the floor unencumbered while their cumulative numismatic IQ was in jeopardy of falling simply from their proximity to my coins. As always, their inventory was quite nice and they were beyond reasonably patient with me while going through each coin that might be attractive to me. After that, I hit the bourse proper and noted that it was almost empty of folks in the aisles. Aside from this being the summer show during poor economic times, I can’t help but think that the relatively new $100 entrance fee for these hours might persuade some folks to arrive later when it is free to enter.
Pleasant conversations were easily had all over the floor and folks seemed quite happy to be at the show, which is in stark contrast to some other down periods in this hobby-industry and might be interpreted to be a good sign. I had one coin to sell and stopped by Laura’s table whereupon she proceeded to perform a very entertaining skit regarding dealers who are afraid to purchase any nice coins at the moment before she turned to Jose and simply said “Cut TomB a check for whatever he wants”. It was a nice interaction and two coins in their inventory that I thought were especially attractive in-hand included the 1857 PCGS MS67 Seated half-dime and a WA Seated half in PCGS MS66.
My search across the floor for material to buy was especially fruitful with the addition to my type set of a Classic half-cent in MS64RB as well as a Type I Buffalo nickel in PR66. Both coins are really very nice and I am certain I paid strong for them, but I expect to own them for quite a while, too. There was one coin, however, that I did not buy and that I have been mildly kicking myself about since I left the show. It was a piece that I already own for my type set and the particular coin that I now own would be in any virtual Bo20 that I might build. Nonetheless, the coin that I passed on was exceptionally attractive with unmitigated originality. This may be a piece that I search online for in the next few days and, if found, may make an attempt to purchase. Note that in the years that I have been in this hobby-industry, there have been precious few pieces that I kicked myself about later.
Even though there were very few folks in attendance, I was still able to meet up and exchange stories with many close friends who happen to be board members and this includes oreville, michael, cohodk/chinook, ColonialCoinUnion, CoinRaritiesOnline, wayneherndon, BigMoose, airplanenut, coinguy1/MarkFeld and no doubt others that I am currently forgetting. Additionally, a healthy mix of knowledgeable folks who do not frequent the boards were in attendance, too, which may also be a good sign for those of us willing and able to ride out the current environment.
There was less generic gold on the bourse than I had expected, but I do not know how well any gold was selling at the show. There was also far less choice material than I can recall seeing at most shows and I take this to mean that most of the better pieces are already placed and are not looking for new homes at these price levels. Whether or not these coins stay placed during a possible extended downturn is not for me to know at the moment, but they were not overly represented on the floor. One disturbing thing that I noticed was a number of what I would consider, in my opinion only, AT (or at least not original) coins in NGC and PCGS holders. There weren’t many. In fact I think I counted only four, but they were Barber/Seated/Reeded Edge coins that did not pass muster for me. This is likely a smaller number of coins of this nature than I typically see at a show, but it still bothered me quite a bit. Please note that I can’t prove any of these aren’t original, but my opinion was made up upon viewing them.
Lots of early dollars were to be had in PCGS and NGC holders, but I didn’t like the look of most of these coins, either. ANACS holdered coins appear to be a vanishing breed, especially coins in the white holders. In contrast, CAC stickers look to be taking root since not only were there the expected folks laden with CAC-stickered slabs, but there also were a sprinkling of CAC stickers in many other cases, too. I heard more than one dealer comment that they were getting killed up to that point in the show, but remember that I left by early afternoon on Friday so things may have changed substantially during Saturday. There was a recent thread about overvalued or overhyped coinage and the 1916 SLQ was listed as one piece. I stopped counting the certified examples of this date once I got to 14-pieces. However, if someone wants a truly exquisite, original circulated example of the date they should contact Jack Beymer since he has a PCGS EF40 that is terrific. There were also a plethora of certified (primarily PCGS) 1932-D WQs in MS63 through a single MS65 I noticed on the floor and some of them were even quite attractive. This is not a rare coin, but finding PCGS graded pieces in this grade range and will positive eye appeal is not always an easy thing to do on the bourse.
So-called dollars looked to have slowed quite a bit more than the rest of the field. One interesting piece I was able to examine was the Utopia bimetallic piece in an NGC MS64 holder. It was quite cool. Gobrecht dollars were much less visible on the floor than in earlier shows even though there were still perhaps five pieces throughout all dates and grade ranges. An incredibly neat piece on the floor was a reverse engraved 1864 Seated half that had an image of a wonderful dog atop a box. Truly very cool, but it was not related to anything else in my collection so it stayed with the dealer. From my conversations with several dealers, it appears that circulated Lincoln cents from the early years are not selling as well as many folks thought they would be given the centennial and the popularity of Lincolns. Quality Seated and Barber type was almost non-existent.
No doubt there are things that I forgot to write, but they may come back to me later. Some people might state that since the market is slow that they were just as well off not attending the show, but I believe that the social networking factor, the ability to offer coins live and the in-hand inspection of as many coins as one wishes to look at more than makes up for a slow market.
Prior to the show I was able to meet up with the Boys of CRO and picked up a very neat Seated half-dime for my type set. Since I already had the type represented, I decided to sell my previous piece and that was the coin sold to Laura (mentioned earlier). The Seated half-dime that I bought from CRO is below and makes the thread worthwhile since there is now an image of a coin in it.
Also prior to the show, I was allowed to go to CAC headquarters to meet up with JA and njcoincrank. I have known njcoincrank for many years so this was a social visit as well as an inspection of my coins. Both JA and njcoincrank were more than generous with their time and knowledge given my position within the hobby-industry and I stayed there for half the day. Several months prior to this meeting I wrote out my prediction of the CAC sticker status for each slabbed coin in my collection and sent these predictions to Mark Feld. At that time I had not known the rate for green stickers or the rate for gold stickers. If I had I might have made my predictions more conservative, but then again I might not have done so since I was attempting to be brutally honest with my coins. Also, since that time I have sold a few pieces as well as added a few others. JA and njcoincrank stated that the overall sticker rate is somewhat less than 40%, which I would interpret as very close to 40%. The gold sticker rate is approximately one coin in twelve hundred submitted (0.083%). Essentially, the 40% sticker rate is made up entirely of green stickers. The volume of coins that CAC inspects also surprised me since it was higher than I might have guessed and this would mean to me that there is more market penetration or acceptance of CAC then some might hope. JA mentioned that the early dollars (FH, DB and Gobrecht) had the lowest sticker rate of any niche within the field and that most of the coins that failed to garner a sticker weren't even close to obtaining the sticker. Additionally, I asked JA if there was a single evaluation standard for all coins or if there was one standard for NGC graded coins and another for PCGS graded coins. The answer is that there is a single standard (the CAC standard) used to evaluate all coins regardless of certification company. JA and njcoincrank mentioned that I could share this information with the boards if I chose and I believe this is an appropriate place to put this.
Edited to add the following paragraph for clarity-
The overall CAC sticker rate for all coins submitted to CAC is just under 40% with only one coin in twelve hundred (0.083%) receiving the gold sticker. However, my collection of 76-coins had a CAC sticker rate of 96.1% and a gold sticker rate of one coin in 15.2-coins (6.6%). I write this to let folks realize that if one attempts to know the niche that they are buying in and if one buys over time and without hurry that it may be possible to obtain relatively nice pieces. I received 68 green stickers and five gold stickers in my 76-coin submission.
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Comments
Is it just me, or does Lady Liberty look abit on the pudgy side?
<< <i>Great show report. And very IMPRESSIVE half dime there! I love the color and details.
Is it just me, or does Lady Liberty look abit on the pudgy side?
I think that if you leave the coin in Dip overnight that she might lose some weight....
Seriously, great report and thanks for the CAC info.
on the various aspects of the coin market. I found your information on
CAC to be most helpful and informative. You certainly deserve my "GROWL
OF APPROVAL" for a very superb report indeed.
Now as for the half dime, that is the kind of coin I really like. Great color, strong
strike and an overall appearance of top notch quality. The picture was indeed, the
gravy on the mashed and really spiced up your report.
Camelot
Thanks Tom!
peacockcoins
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Was I the only one that looked for an S mintmark on that half dime?
If we had missed that I would have been a little disappointed.
CRO had that gorgeous 1863 proof dime. It was awesome!
I was very, very tempted.
The overall CAC sticker rate for all coins submitted to CAC is just under 40% with only one coin in twelve hundred (0.083%) receiving the gold sticker. However, my collection of 76-coins had a CAC sticker rate of 96.1% and a gold sticker rate of one coin in 15.2-coins (6.6%). I write this to let folks realize that if one attempts to know the niche that they are buying in and if one buys over time and without hurry that it may be possible to obtain relatively nice pieces. I received 68 green stickers and five gold stickers in my 76-coin submission.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
while their cumulative numismatic IQ was in jeopardy of falling simply from their proximity to my coins.
Man, that would most certainly be the case if they got near my coins.
The gold sticker rate is approximately one coin in twelve hundred submitted (0.083%).
<< <i>Edited to add the following paragraph for clarity-
The overall CAC sticker rate for all coins submitted to CAC is just under 40% with only one coin in twelve hundred (0.083%) receiving the gold sticker. However, my collection of 76-coins had a CAC sticker rate of 96.1% and a gold sticker rate of one coin in 15.2-coins (6.6%). I write this to let folks realize that if one attempts to know the niche that they are buying in and if one buys over time and without hurry that it may be possible to obtain relatively nice pieces. I received 68 green stickers and five gold stickers in my 76-coin submission. >>
Very nice! And how did this compare to your expectations going in?
I've often said that the majority of nice coins are in collectors' hands and not dealers - and therefore collectors will benefit the most from CAC.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>The gold sticker rate is approximately one coin in twelve hundred submitted (0.083%). >>
Makes you wonder why they even bother to have a gold sticker.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
There was a lot of info, did I miss what percentage of your coins got CAC or not?
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>Edited to add the following paragraph for clarity-
The overall CAC sticker rate for all coins submitted to CAC is just under 40% with only one coin in twelve hundred (0.083%) receiving the gold sticker. However, my collection of 76-coins had a CAC sticker rate of 96.1% and a gold sticker rate of one coin in 15.2-coins (6.6%). I write this to let folks realize that if one attempts to know the niche that they are buying in and if one buys over time and without hurry that it may be possible to obtain relatively nice pieces. I received 68 green stickers and five gold stickers in my 76-coin submission. >>
Great read Tom. The information was very enlightening! Congratulations on your CAC submission!
Visit my son's caringbridge page @ Runner's Caringbridge Page
"To Give Anything Less than Your Best, Is to Sacrifice the Gift" - Steve Prefontaine
TomB,
Thanks! One of the best show reports ever
Great show report. And most impressive stats on your percentage of coins stickered... obviously you are very selective in your purchases, which we should all strive for. Congrats!
john
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
<< <i>One interpretation of why there is such a low rate for gold sticker coins might be that many pieces have been maxed out by resubmission. Also, the requirement for the gold sticker as explained to me is that the coin must be on the upper half of the next grade up from what the holder states. Therefore, a coin in an MS65 holder must grade at least MS66.6 in the eyes of CAC in order to obtain a gold sticker. >>
Makes sense to me, think about how often someone cracks out a coin and gets a 2 point upgrade, it's very uncommon. I have read that the best crackout people are at a 30% success rate so when you figure that CAC probably sees mostly typical coins this makes perfect sense.
Reference: Coin Links
<< <i>Was I the only one that looked for an S mintmark on that half dime?
I was right there with ya.....