100 OZ Silver Bars, Are yours real?

BrianKuszmar · October 10, 2006 7:08AM

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=544959

My response to the thread above reminded me of an old problem with 100 oz .999 silver bars.

Some years back, 100 oz bars were being found with 2-3 holes drilled into the Long end side of the bars, the bars were then filled with lead and then plugged to conceal the lead.
Altered 100 OZ Silver Bars-Real but weighted with lead. As I recall some were found and I suspect some are still circulating. The ones I seen were the Engelhard extruded but I suspect it was not limited to those. I also believe the perpetrators were never caught.

As everything including the weight is correct the only way to tell for sure is using magnification on the sides looking for lines/seams where the plug was fitted.

I will try and post info like this more on the forums as I get time. I also have some fun numismatic stuff I can share more as I post on here in the future.

Much regards to all

Brian Kuszmar
Second Generation Coin Dealer
219 Commercial Blvd
Lbts, Fla. 33308
Questions? Never hesitate to call!
954-493-8811

longtimecollector · October 10, 2006 7:12AM

When buying Engelhard 100's, I always take the bar and set it on top of an empty SAE tube, and then tap gently with a 2 oz jewelers hammer......... If the bar is "good", it "rings"....... If it's been tampered with, it "thuds"........

Cladiator · October 10, 2006 7:14AM

<< When buying Engelhard 100's, I always take the bar and set it on top of an empty SAE tube, and then tap gently with a 2 oz jewelers hammer......... If the bar is "good", it "rings"....... If it's been tampered with, it "thuds"........ >>

Have you actually done this with a tampered with bar?

BrianKuszmar · October 10, 2006 7:24AM

"When buying Engelhard 100's, I always take the bar and set it on top of an empty SAE tube, and then tap gently with a 2 oz jewelers hammer......... If the bar is "good", it "rings"....... If it's been tampered with, it "thuds"........"

I like that, nice easy method that is used for determining silver coins and even silver fineness

Sound, though I have had customers that just could not tell the difference in tone between good and bad- Tone deaf?

I remember years ago when I was a kid, Leon Hendrickson told me about an old guy that could (and did) Taste gold coins and could tell a bad one from a good one and he was always right. I don’t know about that but I have heard stranger stuff.

On a more convincing note, I do know for a fact, guys that can spot certain counterfeit $2.5 and $5 Indians (that still in quantity circulate in the business) by a subtle color difference that they can see that most everyone misses. They are always right.

Regards to all

Brian Kuszmar
Second Generation Coin Dealer

IRCWCoins · October 10, 2006 8:44AM

Here's a pic that I saw on another forum.

thebeav · October 10, 2006 12:39PM

That's a neat picture......

granpagraf · October 10, 2006 12:43PM

I have 1 100 Oz. bar of Engelhardt silver and no visablaty of any tampering! It was My Dad's and he bought many years ago.

Aethelred · October 10, 2006 12:44PM

This is good to know about, I buy a lot of these bars!

topstuf · October 10, 2006 12:48PM

This information is from a mid-1980’s bulletin on Coinnet from TX21. (Don’t even know if they are still around.)

Their Info:
Altered Englehard Bar Test
The following instructions are to test Englehard extruded bars that may have been altered......Four bars have now turned up in this area and this test has been good on all bars.....Test should be used as an indication only!!!
We think this is a good test but have not seen enough bars to say for sure

Take an empty coin tube (the smaller the better) and make sure the lid is tight. Stand the tube on the lid. Balance the bar on top of the tube then strike the bar with a hard object. We have found that hard wood works best and does not dent or damage the bar. The bar should ring. The bad bars thud.

You will need a good ear because some of the Englehard bars do not ring as well as others, but when you hear the bad ones thud you will understand....Some bars ring like a bell. Some sort of ring and the bad ones thud. Also all the bad bars have had the same pattern on the ends.

The pattern is a circular pattern that goes from the top (logo side) to the bottom of the bar.
A similar GOOD pattern goes from one corner to the opposite corner.
Please make note: These are indications only and should be used as such. The only 100% way is to cut the bars in two or ultrasonic test them.
.........................................................................................................

The above is the word for word description that was disseminated on the CoinNet trading network and is the product of a Texas coin dealer who posted it. My only reason for calling attention is for educational purposes only. This was a long time ago and I never got any bad bars so do not know if it is correct or not. The only changes I made were in spelling. As I recall, this information was before Englehard started encasing their bars in plastic. I just don’t remember the date except that it was posted on July 24th of whatever year they printed it.

LEAP269 · October 10, 2006 1:05PM

i will have to tune some bars and listen for the ring

BrianKuszmar · October 10, 2006 11:23PM

Topstuff, Where i n the heck did you find a Coinnet message from way back? Tell me you had is saved and its not available somewhere online!?!

Wow, I wish I could go back and look at some of the old messages there. I have been off Coinnet for years and have been usining the FACTS network only, I suspect if you didnt save it Sloat must have one helluv and archive and your a coinnet subscriber?

Mucg Regards, cool old message!

Brian Kuszmar
Second Generation Coin Dealer
Questions abou Coins, Currency, Bullion?
Call me anytime!
954-493-8811

Conder101 · October 11, 2006 11:11AM

<< When buying Engelhard 100's, I always take the bar and set it on top of an empty SAE tube, and then tap gently with a 2 oz jewelers hammer......... If the bar is "good", it "rings"....... If it's been tampered with, it "thuds"........ >>

Should work with struck bars, and might work with extruded ones. I'm not sure it wold work with the cast ones. That was one of the reasons Engelhard went more to the struck bars and started sealing them in plastic. It made tampering more difficult. The flat smooth sides made the drill and fill marks more visible. (because the lead shrinks as it cools resulting in a slight dimpling at the surface.) One problem I can see with this altering method is that you can't completely fill the drilled holes with lead. Lead is denser than silver so if the holes were filled completely the bar would be too heavy.

cladking · October 11, 2006 11:18AM

<< 

<< When buying Engelhard 100's, I always take the bar and set it on top of an empty SAE tube, and then tap gently with a 2 oz jewelers hammer......... If the bar is "good", it "rings"....... If it's been tampered with, it "thuds"........ >>

Should work with struck bars, and might work with extruded ones. I'm not sure it wold work with the cast ones. That was one of the reasons Engelhard went more to the struck bars and started sealing them in plastic. It made tampering more difficult. The flat smooth sides made the drill and fill marks more visible. (because the lead shrinks as it cools resulting in a slight dimpling at the surface.) One problem I can see with this altering method is that you can't completely fill the drilled holes with lead. Lead is denser than silver so if the holes were filled completely the bar would be too heavy. >>

I've seen these cut open and there were no voids at least in the cut sections. The speculation
was that it was some sort of lead alloy but I know of no one who tested it. It wasn't as soft as
pure lead. There were no signs of tampering on the bars even under magnification. They were
extremely well done. I suspect that a large number of these bars hit the market all at once back
in the early '80's and a good percentage were caught. You should still be wary especially with bars
from that era.

You're right that the earlier Engelhard do not ring. This makes them a little more difficult to sell
but you should be able to get full value.

Jdurg · October 11, 2006 11:19AM

<< 

<< When buying Engelhard 100's, I always take the bar and set it on top of an empty SAE tube, and then tap gently with a 2 oz jewelers hammer......... If the bar is "good", it "rings"....... If it's been tampered with, it "thuds"........ >>

Should work with struck bars, and might work with extruded ones. I'm not sure it wold work with the cast ones. That was one of the reasons Engelhard went more to the struck bars and started sealing them in plastic. It made tampering more difficult. The flat smooth sides made the drill and fill marks more visible. (because the lead shrinks as it cools resulting in a slight dimpling at the surface.) One problem I can see with this altering method is that you can't completely fill the drilled holes with lead. Lead is denser than silver so if the holes were filled completely the bar would be too heavy. >>

Exactly. Density checks are ALWAYS a good idea as the density of lead is significantly higher than silver. In fact, the density of silver is unique enough that you really can't fill it with any easy to find metal and get the counterfit to pass the density test. So if you truly are concerned, weigh the coin and use a water displacement test to determine its volume. If the density isn't proper, then chances are you have a "dud".

Peaceman · October 11, 2006 11:29AM

Geez... I had to go ping mine just now although I bought her from a dealer I know.... it works well with your fingertip too...

LEAP269 · October 11, 2006 11:32AM

can you be more specific as to how to perform a density test please?

cladking · October 11, 2006 12:42PM

<< can you be more specific as to how to perform a density test please? >>

A density test is easy but will not show these bars to be alterred.

Just weigh the bar in air and in water. Divide the difference into the weight in air.

fastrudy · October 11, 2006 6:56PM

The ringing bar can also be heard if you suspend the bar from a string. I could be wrong, but cast, stamped or extruded should not matter, IMHO. The density test is worthless if the proper alloy of lead was used.
Seems to me that another easy, non-destructive test would be to measure the bar's electrical resistance with an ohmeter. Any alteration with lead should show an increase in resistance.

ScarsdaleCoin · October 11, 2006 9:16PM

I enjoyed the pic..very good thread!

Heywood · October 11, 2006 10:58PM

Probably not pure lead, but a solder alloy of Tin Silver- 63 tin/ 37 lead has a eutectic point of 183C..

There still may be some contraction.

Wouldn't there be evidence in an x-ray?, I though lead would block a higher percentage of the rays than silver, so it would appear as a shadow.

cladking · October 12, 2006 12:01AM

<< The ringing bar can also be heard if you suspend the bar from a string. I could be wrong, but cast, stamped or extruded should not matter, IMHO. The density test is worthless if the proper alloy of lead was used.
Seems to me that another easy, non-destructive test would be to measure the bar's electrical resistance with an ohmeter. Any alteration with lead should show an increase in resistance. >>

Most of the current in a conductor is carried just at the surface. There would be no detectible change for this reason.

Bear · October 12, 2006 12:16AM

Are you all trying to tell me, that Pot Metal

isn't silver?

fastrudy · October 12, 2006 1:26AM

Cladking!

Go back and read your physics, what you said about currents being carried at the surface is simply not true. Show me the reference, and I will apoligize to you and the thousands of kids I've taught.

Conder101 · October 12, 2006 4:25AM

Depends on the fequency. The higher the frequency the more the current tends to stay along the outer surface. This wouldn't be a problem for a simple Ohm meter check since it uses DC, but the amount of current is so low that that it probably would not show any difference on the meter even if your meter could measure microohms.

pragmaticgoat · October 12, 2006 5:10AM

I purchased four 100oz Engelhard bars from a local dealer last year, three of the bars had a nice ring and one did not. I took the one back for a refund; the dealer said that it doesn't mean it isn't real, sometimes these bars just don't ring out; I did get a full refund for the one that had the thud, but never did find out whether it was tampered with or not, you sure couldn't tell it apart from any of the other bars.

fastrudy · October 12, 2006 5:33AM

Pragmatic goat:
The dealer lied

Nice icon!

pragmaticgoat · October 12, 2006 5:38AM

Thanks, yours too. Do you own any flowing hair dollars? It's one of my favorites to collect.

fastrudy · October 12, 2006 5:44AM

PM'd you

meos1 · October 12, 2006 6:07AM

Its true that with regard to AC current as the frequency increases the electrons tend to migrate to the surface. Its called the skin effect and is the operational principle that allows you to take a high potential from a tesla coil and pass it on to ground without being injured. DC on the other hand would have to be micro ohms to and that may not be fine enough.

Dan

100 OZ Silver Bars, Are yours real?

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