The TPG's don't seem to have any clear way of authenticating a "First Strike" Silver Eagle
tanner520
Posts: 145
As some of you have seen on another thread, I've been trying to get to the bottom of this "First Strike" nonsense that some TPG's are touting on their holders. My beef is not that Silver Eagles with this designation are any better that ones without it, my beef is with the authentication that this designation implies. I posted on a thread "across the street" with a TPG that has just started putting "First Strike" on their holders this year (we all know that three-letter abbreviation). But, since that site is "fully moderated" it mysteriously has not shown up as a reply yet. Could it be that they are concerned that someone has called their marketing bluff?
This is the thread to the OP:
First Stike Thread Link
Below is my posting that has not shown up yet:
Beijim, I am very glad you asked this question. I don't have many posts on the board but I lurk a lot here and I've been in numismatics for quite some time now.
I have been after this subject heavily this year since some of the more reputable TPG's have decided to get on the "first strike" band wagon.
Scott, if a grading service is basing their "first strike" designation on a date stamp, then they're making a mistake. The implication of "first strike" is some of the first amounts of coins struck with a die, not boxes dated before X. This brings in a serious credibility issue in my mind. I think Beijim's question above is legitimate and is what would be required to validate the designation being put on the holder.
It seems that the whole coin collecting community has just accepted this designation from the TPG's with a grain of salt and has said "Oh well, it says first strike but that doesn't mean anything. It's just marketing." And to that I say "BUNK."
My point is that if they don't have any way of authenticating that the coin is one of the first strikes off the dies, then that two-word cliche should not be on there. If the TPG's expect me to accept their authentication as an MSwhatever and that the coin is not counterfeit then they better have a better explanation than "anything within the first month" because if that's there reasoning then they invalidate all other designations on that holder as well. If everything on that holder is not valid then what is?
Please tell me there is more than a date requirement for this designation on a Silver Eagle. I read the web link you supplied and it looks like only the "American Eagle First Strikes" section is applicable to Silver Eagles, of course. So, are we in the coin collecting community supposed to swallow a date criteria as authentication? I say "No." There needs to be more.
Unless there is some documentation that says the date the die was changed and the amount of coins struck with that die then we have no authentication. If we rely on the date on the certificate alone then how do we really know the "age" of the die that struck those coins?
This is the link to their "First Strike" page:
First Strike Link
This is the thread to the OP:
First Stike Thread Link
Below is my posting that has not shown up yet:
Beijim, I am very glad you asked this question. I don't have many posts on the board but I lurk a lot here and I've been in numismatics for quite some time now.
I have been after this subject heavily this year since some of the more reputable TPG's have decided to get on the "first strike" band wagon.
Scott, if a grading service is basing their "first strike" designation on a date stamp, then they're making a mistake. The implication of "first strike" is some of the first amounts of coins struck with a die, not boxes dated before X. This brings in a serious credibility issue in my mind. I think Beijim's question above is legitimate and is what would be required to validate the designation being put on the holder.
It seems that the whole coin collecting community has just accepted this designation from the TPG's with a grain of salt and has said "Oh well, it says first strike but that doesn't mean anything. It's just marketing." And to that I say "BUNK."
My point is that if they don't have any way of authenticating that the coin is one of the first strikes off the dies, then that two-word cliche should not be on there. If the TPG's expect me to accept their authentication as an MSwhatever and that the coin is not counterfeit then they better have a better explanation than "anything within the first month" because if that's there reasoning then they invalidate all other designations on that holder as well. If everything on that holder is not valid then what is?
Please tell me there is more than a date requirement for this designation on a Silver Eagle. I read the web link you supplied and it looks like only the "American Eagle First Strikes" section is applicable to Silver Eagles, of course. So, are we in the coin collecting community supposed to swallow a date criteria as authentication? I say "No." There needs to be more.
Unless there is some documentation that says the date the die was changed and the amount of coins struck with that die then we have no authentication. If we rely on the date on the certificate alone then how do we really know the "age" of the die that struck those coins?
This is the link to their "First Strike" page:
First Strike Link
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Clearly a meaningless definition by the TPG's.
Two things about all this are surprising to me.
1. There have been no replies/rebuttals by any of the TPG's on their bulletin boards. They have no explanation as to how they determined their definition, to the point to where it appears they are hoping it all goes away and they can "just get by with it." This brings me to the conclusion to dispute their authentication about any data they put on their holders.
2. There has been little if any interest from the numismatic community on these boards. Do we care? Are all designations on a labeI authentic and important or are just some? It appears that there is no interest one way or the other so maybe that's what you're telling me? Is it OK for the TPG's to make up a definition for their own marketing cause no matter how contrary it may be to the real meaning?
You tell me...does it or does it not matter? Today it's only on bullion but tomorow it could be something else.
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Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
From what I have seen, this board is moderated much more. Perhaps you made an error in submitting your post.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
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TD
If someone can show that "first strike" in numismatics, means a coin struck early from a pair of dies, and that PCGS/NGC/etc is a professional company in that arena and does not offer an overt re-definition, then someone showing that PCGS is knowingly labeling, for sale, coins that are NOT early strikes, I could see a class action happening. Regrettably, that is what our society does these days.
I bought a "1st strike" last year.....because the regular ones were available at the time, because I paid ZERO premium for the "1st strike", and because I wanted the 2005 SAE MS69 PCGS at that time and didn't want to wait. Else, I think it is a marketing POS.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>...it appears they are hoping it all goes away and they can "just get by with it." >>
Bingo.
Tanner: Some of the VERY largest and most respected "classic" coin dealers in the country now handle "First Strike" Silver Eagles, not to mention many modern coin dealers. Now, nearly every grading company is also marketing these coins with the First Strike brand (or similar language like "First Strikes" or "Mint First Strike". But, it is also common knowledge that the First Strike label pertains to those coins minted before a certain date in time and has NOTHING to do with the state of the die for any particular coin. Wayne Herndon even suggested on a thread recently that perhaps one day we could even have "daily strikes" listing on the holder the day of the week or month the coin was minted (nice birthday gifts?) FS was (and still is) a neat marketing tool for the grading companies. Yes, the coins generally cost $2 additional to produce with the special insert tags and sellers obviously try to recoup that $2 in their asking price. $2 cant buy you a candy bar anymore in the Movie theatre - I can live with the grading companies trying to improve their bottom lines with the FS marketing and "cashing in" on collectors who like the look of the holders and can show their friends they own a FS Silver Eagle - even if they paid $2 more than a "regular" Silver Eagle. CU stock is up nearly 40%-50% in the past couple months since the time they announced their FS program for 2006 with A-Mark. A collector who bought (1) share of stock in the past 90 days a $12/share paid for nearly (3) FS labels with his profits.
Wondercoin
Check it out
How convenient...I can hear it now..."if we ever do get called on the carpet in a lawsuit, we can just refer to this web page and show how we use a different definition for each situation using the same words..."
HEY PCGS, ARE YOU THERE...HELLO... Care to come out on the moral high ground here?
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<< <i>Collectors have always sought out coins of special significance, and one way that a coin can be distinguished from another is by the date that it was struck. Included in this category are coins of early or first release. A general term for these coins is first strikes. There are several different types of first strikes and limited edition coinage which can be noted on the certification label by NGC. In all cases, this special designation is reserved for coinage with accompanying documentation, and NGC has adopted the following conventions for its certification.
>>
This is BS. Do they really need these gimmicks to stay in business? And I was really surprised that ANACS stooped to doing this as well.
Tanner: I have seen NO ONE disagree with you on that point. But, my next question is "so what"? Are you suggesting the TPG companies are not allowed to define the concept of first strike on their holders in any manner they see fit, especially when it is clearly defined, however it is defined? What if they chose to add the designation "second strikes" to the coins struck in 2/06 and "third strikes" to the coins in 3/06? Is there an inherent problem with that? I am confused here - are you simply bothered by the $2 fee the grading services tack on for these (marketing) designations?
Wondercoin
What I don't understand is why the US mint has not jumped on the bandwagon. They could mint the first X 000's coins, then modify slightly the dies for all the other coins. Why don't they do that? it seems an easy way to make money / raise excitement.
Robert A. Heinlein
<< <i>"If you pick up the latest release of Coin World, you'll find an article in there regarding "First Strikes" and the Mint's definition of it. That's the REAL definition, no matter what is currently being accepted by the TPG's as "common knowledge."
Tanner: I have seen NO ONE disagree with you on that point. But, my next question is "so what"? Are you suggesting the TPG companies are not allowed to define the concept of first strike on their holders in any manner they see fit, especially when it is clearly defined, however it is defined? What if they chose to add the designation "second strikes" to the coins struck in 2/06 and "third strikes" to the coins in 3/06? Is there an inherent problem with that? I am confused here - are you simply bothered by the $2 fee the grading services tack on for these (marketing) designations?
Wondercoin >>
Most people who buy these will not go to (or know to go to) the NGC website for the true defintion of "first strike". They will be under the impression that they are getting the first few coins off a fresh set of dies.
I doubt it. Especially if the TPG's definition of First Strike is publicly available. People bought pet rocks and didn't sue for buying what they could pick up off the ground.
<< <i>Tanner: I have seen NO ONE disagree with you on that point. But, my next question is "so what"? Are you suggesting the TPG companies are not allowed to define the concept of first strike on their holders in any manner they see fit, especially when it is clearly defined, however it is defined? What if they chose to add the designation "second strikes" to the coins struck in 2/06 and "third strikes" to the coins in 3/06? Is there an inherent problem with that? I am confused here - are you simply bothered by the $2 fee the grading services tack on for these (marketing) designations?
Wondercoin >>
I'm very glad you asked (seriously and not meant sarcastically). My point is not the cost or the novelty or the labeling...none of the "money/marketing" stuff. It's the integrity that these TPG's tout and the authentication they promise to the Nth degree. So, if there really is integrity behind their authentications/validations then they should be following the Mint's definition of this infamous title for a coin and not their own made-up one. They work so hard to convince the coin community that they are a valid source of information and to try to win over the hearts of the hard-nosed collector (such as myself) that still believes in the "buy the coin - not the holder" adage....and yet they pull this???? I will not roll over for them. If they want my recognition (and others too) as a legitimate service then they better have a better explanation than a definition they made up.
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Wondercoin.
P.S. Coinhusker - why woud these folks find their way over to the Coin World article regarding the US Mint definition, but not the TPG's websites for a definition? And, my experience is what I am seeing on ebay, Teletrade, etc - I have never seen them sell on TV, so I have no idea what is being told to viewers. Hopefully, the truth!
1. I'd like an explanation from the TPG's as to why they decided to use a completely different definition for this infamous two-word phrase and what basis they feel justifies designating a coin "First Strike" using the REAL definition, not their own.
2. My more pressing concern is the fact that they put this title on the label of their holder with no real way to substantiate the designation. So, this brings in integrity issues. If some parts of the label have unverifiable/uncertifiable designation, then what on that label is valid. Either all data is valid and authentic or none of it is. There's no "trust this part but not this part." I refuse to overlook the "First Strike" designation as just marketing and still hold the other designations on that label as authentic. There better be valid justification for all of it.
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Box of 20
1. I'd like an explanation from the TPG's as to why they decided to use a completely different definition for this infamous two-word phrase and what basis they feel justifies designating a coin "First Strike" using the REAL definition, not their own.
2. My more pressing concern is the fact that they put this title on the label of their holder with no real way to substantiate the designation. So, this brings in integrity issues. If some parts of the label have unverifiable/uncertifiable designation, then what on that label is valid. Either all data is valid and authentic or none of it is. There's no "trust this part but not this part." I refuse to overlook the "First Strike" designation as just marketing and still hold the other designations on that label as authentic. There better be valid justification for all of it.
1. I think Mr. Taylor answered that last night. If it works (makes money) use it, in a round about way. BTW, don't hold your breath waiting for an answer.
2. Although I would agree with you, technically, the coins are created in waves, in that, these are the coins that are of the first 236,000 created, ie... first strike. Now the second wave of coins will be the "second strike" or something to that nature. It is a marketing technique to raise sales for the distributors IMO.
But, I suppose in a way there was an answer. An answer that I really want the TPG's to understand. What the "it really doesn't matter what you put on the holder, even if it's unverifiable and meaningless" statement from numismatists is really saying is that your services don't matter that much. You're really not respected as much as I thought. After all your saber-rattling and bragging, you only come down to encapsulation and, at best, just helping to preserve the condition of the coin. Your opinions otherwise are generally overlooked, valid or not.
Meanwhile, I'll keep cracking them out of your plastic, just like always. Every coin I've ever bought in the past I cracked out right after I bought it. I'll do my own preserving my own way but at least I won't have any meaningless propaganda on my coins.
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remain respectable among core collectors they better drop the
first strike nonsense. this is what i got from the thread.
Two words folks: "Coin Vault." That's why this designation exists. Pushing this designation allows TPGs to capitalize on bullion submissions from major dealers, who in turn hype the designation as something that it is not. The Coin Vault explanation of the designation is that these are the "freshest, newest" coins minted. They clearly imply that these coins are early die state. That's a big problem which could eventually result in PCGS, NGC, ANACS and ICG losing credibility in the market.
Will a lawsuit result from this? I don't think so, but then again, I'm not a lawyer. All I know is that the folks that buy these coins off of television shows demonstrate very limited knowledge of both the numismatic hobby and marketplace by paying huge premiums for graded bullion (Coin Vault price for an NGC MS69 "First Strike" Silver American Eagle is currently $39.99) when the same exact merchandise is available through other channels (ie: eBay) for significantly less money. If they are willing to accept the Coin Vault's valuation of these items and their explanation of their so-called "condition rarity," I find it hard to believe that these people wouldn't also take the Coin Vault explanation of the "First Strike" designation as fact.
Edited to add: I saw ICG "First Strike" Silver American Eagles on television a few nights ago and found this interesting: ICG designates a number on the coin (X of XXXX). How is this possible and what could the justification be?
how many strikes can a die make before
the coins become noticeabaly weak?
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<< <i>Edited to add: I saw ICG "First Strike" Silver American Eagles on television a few nights ago and found this interesting: ICG designates a number on the coin (X of XXXX). How is this possible and what could the justification be? >>
Very simple, they submitted XXXX coins to ICG and this is coin X. PCGS did the same thing with the death coins. If you look you will find pieces labeled 1 of 250, or 1 of 1400 etc. The problem is that when they got done with the first "of so many", they simply did another groupd "of so many". And even worse, you will never find a "2 of" or "3 of". All 1400 coins were "1 of 1400" which allowed to unethical to sell them as low numbered pieces.
In the short term - yes, they will sell more coins.
In the long term - their credibility will suffer more than it has already. The TPG's will become even less impacting in the coin community than they already are.
(Calling out to the TPG's) Hey, guys...short-sightedness will cost you more!!!
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