Nobody finds it strange that they come across all of these gems, week after week, month after month? Really?
I'm sure they run a legit operation. No trimming involved here. They just happen to open millions of dollars in unopened product a year and are satisfied with losing money.
Here's the thing- We all know from experience that it's unprofitable to bust wax and vending for profit, yet these guys have been doing it for several years and are somehow staying afloat. We're talking stuff from the early 70s, 86-87 Fleer basketball, etc....
Good Day, And in the last year or two have jumped into the Non Sport stuff. And the stock they have as well as the percentage of 10's is absolutely unbelieveable and as Lee said week after week. I have said for along time that I smell fish !!!!! Neil
Actually Collect Non Sport, but am just so full of myself I post all over the place !!!!!!!
I buy a TON of stuff from them. Most of the stuff is graded correctly, so I'm not going to jump on that bandwagon, but I do think they must have a sweet deal worked out with PSA. Something like $3/card. I also don't think they pay for the cards that don't meet their minimum grade. Still, how do they keep up the volume, and were is all this unopened wax coming from? Is it the inflated shipping cost that keep them going? Lots of questions. Very few answers.
That Marino is sweet!
Edited to stay on thread topic.
"The Sipe market is ridiculous right now" CDsNuts, 1/9/15
They may also buy out collections. It would be unprofitable to just open packs, but buying collections would be a better way to go.
That said I am sure there is a massive discount being given to them and they may get the benefit of the doubt on many of their submissions. I have bought about a dozen cards fromthem in the past and never had a problem.
One could get cards graded for free and it would still be unprofitable to open up the stuff they open (early 70s vending? Forget about it). This business model only works if you're getting an abnormal amount of high grades, and the only way to do that is to doctor cards (very well).
<< <i>One could get cards graded for free and it would still be unprofitable to open up the stuff they open (early 70s vending? Forget about it). This business model only works if you're getting an abnormal amount of high grades, and the only way to do that is to doctor cards (very well). >>
Some serious accusations are being tossed around here.
<< <i>One could get cards graded for free and it would still be unprofitable to open up the stuff they open (early 70s vending? Forget about it). This business model only works if you're getting an abnormal amount of high grades, and the only way to do that is to doctor cards (very well). >>
I can't say that I agree with the doctoring theory. It's true that busting that wax is highly unprofitable, but wasting hours and hours on doctoring each card would be even more time consuming and unprofitable. Aside from not paying for cards that don't meet minimum grades (and paying $2-3 for ones that do), I feel like their deal with PSA must be like a BCCG deal with QVC. If it looks good enough to the naked eye, give them the grade.
Hours and hours? I spent a total of 30 minutes trimming 7 cards to see if I could get them by the graders. Here's what I posted a while back in the registry forum:
"Just to see how easy it could be, I trimmed 7 cards and included them in my last submission. All 7 got slabbed and three of them were 10s. I destroyed the cards and sent the flips back to PSA. Based on this experiment, I would venture to say that there are a decent amount of trimmed cards in PSA slabs.
Just to make sure no one thinks I'm making this up, I probably wouldn't have done this if they weren't trimmed:
FWIW, that Marino *might* be really nice, but it's hard to tell. I'm normally all for scanning with a black background, but when the borders are black, you can't see the corners, edges or centering at all.
And these are the results from a guy who has never trimmed a card in his life. Imagine what an experienced doctor could do. And the argument that PSA doesn't thoroughly examine 4SC's cards is even more of an incentive for them to doctor cards.
<< <i>And these are the results from a guy who has never trimmed a card in his life. Imagine what an experienced doctor could do. And the argument that PSA doesn't thoroughly examine 4SC's cards is even more of an incentive for them to doctor cards. >>
Wow Lee, that's unreal. I had never seen that thread. 7 cards in 30 mins?? If you factor that in with PSA's culpability by not "carefully" reviewing their cards and PSA not slabbing cards that don't meet minimum grades...well, I guess you've swayed me.
Had that guy who keeps continuing the thread about BGS altered cards seen this? He'd s***
I guess it's fairly careless of me to accuse anybody (even in a roundabout way) of card doctoring without any proof, but I just can't seem to come to any other conclusion. I don't even really necessarily blame PSA or the graders. I just think it's really hard to detect trimming on cards with modern card stock (70s-present), and there are certainly people out there taking advantage of this.
But what about the time that it takes to "doctor" a card? With that kind of volume, they would have to have a large team of people doing the "doctoring"
"The Sipe market is ridiculous right now" CDsNuts, 1/9/15
<< <i>And these are the results from a guy who has never trimmed a card in his life. Imagine what an experienced doctor could do. And the argument that PSA doesn't thoroughly examine 4SC's cards is even more of an incentive for them to doctor cards. >>
Wow Lee, that's unreal. I had never seen that thread. 7 cards in 30 mins?? If you factor that in with PSA's culpability by not "carefully" reviewing their cards and PSA not slabbing cards that don't meet minimum grades...well, I guess you've swayed me.
Had that guy who keeps continuing the thread about BGS altered cards seen this? He'd s*** >>
Yes he has seen it But like many simply ignores it and continues to live in fantasy land where PSA is perfect can you say fandango?. If Lee's experiment were performed on SGC or BGS cards the thread would be 30 pages long by now. But when he posted it in the BGS altered thread started by angusdei or whatever the thread quickly died. People need to realize NONE of these companies are perfect plain and simple.
dizzle hit on another point I should make- I don't believe BGS, SGC, or certainly not GAI are any better at sniffing out trimjobs than PSA. I guess the responsible thing to do would've been to crack the cards and send them to each company, but I had already invested $100 in my experiment (trimmer and grading fees), and the sole point was just to pique my curiosity.
Ok, After looking at Nut's trimming experiment, it may have changed my mind. But, I've gotten some partial sets from NewEnglandSportscards that had some very nice cards in them. Cards that with a little trimmy trim trim, could have easily been 9/10ish.
"The Sipe market is ridiculous right now" CDsNuts, 1/9/15
<< <i>Ok, After looking at Nut's trimming experiment, it may have changed my mind. But, I've gotten some partial sets from NewEnglandSportscards that had some very nice cards in them. Cards that with a little trimmy trim trim, could have easily been 9/10ish. >>
See that was my initial reasoning (aside from time) that I tended to favor more of the BCCG to QVC = PSA to FSC theory on things. I've bought cards from 4SC, NESC and 4Star that were not 10's and they definitely could have been had they been altered. I don't know. We're never really going to get an answer on this. It'll always be pure speculation.
I think the bottom line is NO company is perfect and we all probably own cards that are trimmed or doctored in some other way if we have bought graded cards on the Bay.
I guess that's one more advantage of buying wax and getting them graded yourself. At least you know your cards aren't doctored... unless you wanted them so and did it yourself.
Lastly, with 4SC remember they buy cards WHOLESALE and get their cards graded wholesale so they have a lot less invested in each card than we do. I realize that may not be enough to make their business model work but it is an important fact. They probably pay 50% of what we do for product and for grading.
From my talks with some dealers it is rumored 4SC has bought a huge wharehouse of material from an older dealer that didn't want to spend time sorting and grading. They do have a deal with PSA for grading fees and it's less than 3 bucks a card from my understanding. As far as trimming I would say that a vast majority of their stuff wouldn't need it due to what it sells for (they have alot of under 5$ cards sell).
If you look at their runs on Ebay it seems they hit a certain year and just submit every card they find gradeable. It is consistent with them sorting through tons of vending and wax and pulling out everything 8 or better. Since we have no way to know their "volume" of raw cards maybe they don't need to trim.
Since it is so easy however to do this I would not be surprised if some of the higher end star cards don't get fixed before submitting but how many other dealers are doing it also?
Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
larry, I agree with most of what you said, but there's no such thing as wholesale any more. When 4SC buys an old vending box or set off ebay (which they do), they pay full retail. Just like when Steve Hart buys unopened material, he pays a fair price. With ebay, people know what their stuff is worth nowadays, so it's nearly impossible to buy stuff at half retail like in the olden days. There's no doubt that they get a deal on grading (I've heard $3/card), but they're not picking up unopened material for anywhere near half market value.
I agree 100%, but since they are not a publically traded company i guess we'll never know?
They obviously have deep pockets, there is considerable investment(s) required to: wrangle all these cards, have them graded & pay for e-bay fees for all the stores & transactions they do.
PSA & big submitters like 4sc do have mutually beneficial relationships though.
If they are buying from Steve and getting alot of deals on Ebay then they don't have as good a model as I thought. Maybe they ran out of their original source material and started to branch out but that seems to be a losing prop. To turn BBCE's inventory and Ebay buys into profit you would almost have to "gurantee" a certain percentage of 9's and 10's per deal.
Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
I've been outbid numerous times on 1986 fleer bk in the past few months by one of their alts. Newenglandsportscards in some instances they have bid the price up a little over going rate.
I've been outbid numerous times on 1986 fleer bk in the past few months by one of their alts. Newenglandsportscards in some instances they have bid the price up a little over going rate.
Bold statement. Would be interested if others have experienced this?
<< <i>Hours and hours? I spent a total of 30 minutes trimming 7 cards to see if I could get them by the graders. Here's what I posted a while back in the registry forum:
"Just to see how easy it could be, I trimmed 7 cards and included them in my last submission. All 7 got slabbed and three of them were 10s. I destroyed the cards and sent the flips back to PSA. Based on this experiment, I would venture to say that there are a decent amount of trimmed cards in PSA slabs.
Just to make sure no one thinks I'm making this up, I probably wouldn't have done this if they weren't trimmed:
Newenglandsportscards bids on practically every 70's high grade set offered on ebay. They've rarely bought vending or wax, though. Anyone can go on ebay and do a search of their purchases over the last 30 days.
<< <i>I've been outbid numerous times on 1986 fleer bk in the past few months by one of their alts. Newenglandsportscards in some instances they have bid the price up a little over going rate.
Bold statement. Would be interested if others have experienced this? >>
"bold statement" hmm I must be missing something here? just do a advanced search of items by bidder newenglandsportscards and you'll see they won over 200 auctions in the last 2 weeks. Incuding buying some 1988 fleer bk sets that usually go for around 50-55.00 and they paid 89.00 on one and 99.00 on another.
But my favorite auction these guys won is this 1986 fleer basketball set with alot of the key cards graded by GEM if you look at the auction scroll down toi the pick of the larry bird looks a little small don't it? now if these guys had such great conections why are they purchasing sets with gem graded cards.
They buy huge amounts of raw cards as well, probably more ethen they do with wax and vending. I have seen them at reading and the national buying raw sets, lots etc....
www.sportsnutcards.com Specializing in Certified Autograph Cards, Rookies, Rare Inserts and other quality modern cards! Over 8000 Cards in stock now! Come visit our physical store located at 1210 Main St. Belmar ,NJ
Awesome thread with lots of good points. I've wanted to do the same experiment that Lee did but didn't want to take the plunge for 200 to 300 dollars. I've busted at least $3k in 1988 Fleer Basketball wax and have been doing the submit and sell thing. I've finially given up on the whole deal because it just wasn't profitable. (and I even got Five 1988 Jordan All-Star PSA 10's that sold for an average of $350 a piece) Lee is right...busting Wax (even the more modern stuff like I did) is not profitable....period. Does make you wonder what gives?
Yes, it's all a clever ruse to get people to trust me. I destroy the cheap ones to make you think I'm honest, but when the PSA 10 Jordan rookie rolls in, the hammer comes down. And I would've gotten away with it too if it wasn't for you meddling kids.
Unfortunately I think Lee is pretty much dead on. I have never had a problem with 4SC but if you really think they keep getting finds of super high grade key cards in the 70s & 80s you are just fooling yourself.
Dizzle- My bad. I misread your post. I thought you were saying they were shilling their auctions with their alt ids. I will read closer next time. My bad.
HighChopper
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That must be a toughie with those black borders?
I'm sure they run a legit operation. No trimming involved here. They just happen to open millions of dollars in unopened product a year and are satisfied with losing money.
This befuddles me.
Are they sitting on a warehouse of unopened product?
And in the last year or two have jumped into the Non Sport stuff. And the stock they have as well as the percentage of 10's is absolutely unbelieveable and as Lee said week after week. I have said for along time that I smell fish !!!!!
Neil
Lots of questions. Very few answers.
That Marino is sweet!
Edited to stay on thread topic.
CDsNuts, 1/9/15
That said I am sure there is a massive discount being given to them and they may get the benefit of the doubt on many of their submissions. I have bought about a dozen cards fromthem in the past and never had a problem.
<< <i>One could get cards graded for free and it would still be unprofitable to open up the stuff they open (early 70s vending? Forget about it). This business model only works if you're getting an abnormal amount of high grades, and the only way to do that is to doctor cards (very well). >>
Some serious accusations are being tossed around here.
How about this: You buy some 1968-1973 vending boxes and bust them. I'll pay your grading fees. See how far you come out ahead.
<< <i>One could get cards graded for free and it would still be unprofitable to open up the stuff they open (early 70s vending? Forget about it). This business model only works if you're getting an abnormal amount of high grades, and the only way to do that is to doctor cards (very well). >>
I can't say that I agree with the doctoring theory. It's true that busting that wax is highly unprofitable, but wasting hours and hours on doctoring each card would be even more time consuming and unprofitable. Aside from not paying for cards that don't meet minimum grades (and paying $2-3 for ones that do), I feel like their deal with PSA must be like a BCCG deal with QVC. If it looks good enough to the naked eye, give them the grade.
My Podcast - Now FEATURED on iTunes
"Just to see how easy it could be, I trimmed 7 cards and included them in my last submission. All 7 got slabbed and three of them were 10s. I destroyed the cards and sent the flips back to PSA. Based on this experiment, I would venture to say that there are a decent amount of trimmed cards in PSA slabs.
Just to make sure no one thinks I'm making this up, I probably wouldn't have done this if they weren't trimmed:
<< <i>And these are the results from a guy who has never trimmed a card in his life. Imagine what an experienced doctor could do. And the argument that PSA doesn't thoroughly examine 4SC's cards is even more of an incentive for them to doctor cards. >>
Wow Lee, that's unreal. I had never seen that thread. 7 cards in 30 mins?? If you factor that in with PSA's culpability by not "carefully" reviewing their cards and PSA not slabbing cards that don't meet minimum grades...well, I guess you've swayed me.
Had that guy who keeps continuing the thread about BGS altered cards seen this? He'd s***
My Podcast - Now FEATURED on iTunes
CDsNuts, 1/9/15
<< <i>
<< <i>And these are the results from a guy who has never trimmed a card in his life. Imagine what an experienced doctor could do. And the argument that PSA doesn't thoroughly examine 4SC's cards is even more of an incentive for them to doctor cards. >>
Wow Lee, that's unreal. I had never seen that thread. 7 cards in 30 mins?? If you factor that in with PSA's culpability by not "carefully" reviewing their cards and PSA not slabbing cards that don't meet minimum grades...well, I guess you've swayed me.
Had that guy who keeps continuing the thread about BGS altered cards seen this? He'd s*** >>
Yes he has seen it But like many simply ignores it and continues to live in fantasy land where PSA is perfect can you say fandango?. If Lee's experiment were performed on SGC or BGS cards the thread would be 30 pages long by now. But when he posted it in the BGS altered thread started by angusdei or whatever the thread quickly died. People need to realize NONE of these companies are perfect plain and simple.
After looking at Nut's trimming experiment, it may have changed my mind. But, I've gotten some partial sets from NewEnglandSportscards that had some very nice cards in them. Cards that with a little trimmy trim trim, could have easily been 9/10ish.
CDsNuts, 1/9/15
<< <i>Ok,
After looking at Nut's trimming experiment, it may have changed my mind. But, I've gotten some partial sets from NewEnglandSportscards that had some very nice cards in them. Cards that with a little trimmy trim trim, could have easily been 9/10ish. >>
See that was my initial reasoning (aside from time) that I tended to favor more of the BCCG to QVC = PSA to FSC theory on things. I've bought cards from 4SC, NESC and 4Star that were not 10's and they definitely could have been had they been altered. I don't know. We're never really going to get an answer on this. It'll always be pure speculation.
My Podcast - Now FEATURED on iTunes
I think the bottom line is NO company is perfect and we all probably own cards that are trimmed or doctored in some other way if we have bought graded cards on the Bay.
I guess that's one more advantage of buying wax and getting them graded yourself. At least you know your cards aren't doctored... unless you wanted them so and did it yourself.
Lastly, with 4SC remember they buy cards WHOLESALE and get their cards graded wholesale so they have a lot less invested in each card than we do. I realize that may not be enough to make their business model work but it is an important fact. They probably pay 50% of what we do for product and for grading.
If you look at their runs on Ebay it seems they hit a certain year and just submit every card they find gradeable. It is consistent with them sorting through tons of vending and wax and pulling out everything 8 or better. Since we have no way to know their "volume" of raw cards maybe they don't need to trim.
Since it is so easy however to do this I would not be surprised if some of the higher end star cards don't get fixed before submitting but how many other dealers are doing it also?
CINCINNATI REDS
1976 - 1991 - Topps PSA 10
1983 & 1985 Fleer PSA 10
1985 Donruss PSA 10
Blue Ink Signed Topps Cards
Game-Used Bats/Jerseys
OPC PSA 10
MC & OC Cards
OTHER:
Eric Davis Anything
Votto, Willingham, Cantu, Doumit, Gomes
Baron Davis Game Used Jersey
I agree 100%, but since they are not a publically traded company i guess we'll never know?
They obviously have deep pockets, there is considerable investment(s) required to: wrangle all these cards, have them graded & pay for e-bay fees for all the stores & transactions they do.
PSA & big submitters like 4sc do have mutually beneficial relationships though.
alas
j
RIP GURU
<< <i>but I had already invested $100 in my experiment (trimmer and grading fees) >>
So they sell "special" trimmers for cards......
<< <i>I heard from a very reputable source that they buy around $30-40k a month from BBCE >>
You would think if they are spending that much with Steve he must give them a very good price.
Bold statement. Would be interested if others have experienced this?
Neil
<< <i>Hours and hours? I spent a total of 30 minutes trimming 7 cards to see if I could get them by the graders. Here's what I posted a while back in the registry forum:
"Just to see how easy it could be, I trimmed 7 cards and included them in my last submission. All 7 got slabbed and three of them were 10s. I destroyed the cards and sent the flips back to PSA. Based on this experiment, I would venture to say that there are a decent amount of trimmed cards in PSA slabs.
Just to make sure no one thinks I'm making this up, I probably wouldn't have done this if they weren't trimmed:
This speaks for itself^.
<< <i>I've been outbid numerous times on 1986 fleer bk in the past few months by one of their alts. Newenglandsportscards in some instances they have bid the price up a little over going rate.
Bold statement. Would be interested if others have experienced this? >>
"bold statement" hmm I must be missing something here? just do a advanced search of items by bidder newenglandsportscards and you'll see they won over 200 auctions in the last 2 weeks. Incuding buying some 1988 fleer bk sets that usually go for around 50-55.00 and they paid 89.00 on one and 99.00 on another.
But my favorite auction these guys won is this 1986 fleer basketball set with alot of the key cards graded by GEM if you look at the auction scroll down toi the pick of the larry bird looks a little small don't it? now if these guys had such great conections why are they purchasing sets with gem graded cards.
here's the link 1986 fleer set
Specializing in Certified Autograph Cards, Rookies, Rare Inserts and other quality modern cards! Over 8000 Cards in stock now! Come visit our physical store located at 1210 Main St. Belmar ,NJ
Robb
My bad. I misread your post. I thought you were saying they were shilling their auctions with their alt ids. I will read closer next time. My bad.
You beat me to it!
Was also going to mention Palmolive ... Ha, that's funny.
Are you selling those slabs with the drill bit?
I could use an '88 Nate Newton.
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