CACG AU55 crackout graded MS63 by PCGS!
Comments
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Which of the grading companies has a sister company that buys and sells coins and could benefit by buying lower grades and then reholdering at a higher grade? I'm not saying this is going on, I'm just asking.
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@MasonG said:
@P0CKETCHANGE said:
TPGs use the same 70 point scale, but do not grade to the same standard.You need to understand that both grades may be accurate, despite being different.
Exactly. There are too many threads here about TPG "A" and "B" grading a coin differently, with the conclusion that TPG "B" got it wrong because the grade is different from the one assigned by "A".
And forget that whole "Conservative grading is better" nonsense. Any competent grader can grade as conservatively as he chooses. What matters is how consistent the grading is.
To me, this is not borne out in practice. If what you are saying is accurate, it would be normal to look at a coin and say, "Oh good, this is a CACG AU55/PCGS 63, great coin. The pricing guide says this should be $x for this type of coin." But that is not at all borne out in the data. The grades are side-by-side, as is the pricing guide(with minor adjustments). If you can show me pricing guides that price a CACG 55 to equal a PCGS 63, then your argument would start to make more sense.
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Is this from a single submission of 8 coins, or is this 8 coins pulled from a much larger submission?
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Remind me again is this all the same coin or are these all different coins?
The court jester does not play, but gently pulls the strings…
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I’ve been tilting at this particular windmill forever but, if grading opinions diverge to this degree, why are we even putting numbers (which imply some! objective standards) on the holders…
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@dval2929 said:
@coinkat said:
Grading remains a subjective opinion. Some opinions may be better than others but any graded opinion is captured at a moment in time. And opinions as to a coin’s grade can change over time.While some might be alarmed, I am not loosing sleep over this.
I mean, you are right. But these are very wide variances. A 55 to a 63 in many coins can be hundreds of thousands of dollars. You point makes perfect sense for a 61 vs 62, or sticker vs. no sticker.
But two grading services having differing opinions by 5 grades seems....problematic. Ditto with details vs no details in terms of the pure monetary implications for both buyer and seller.
Pricing is not uniform between services or even coins in the same holder from the same service. People do look at the coins. And people do know who is the more conservative grading company.
If it is in a 63 holder with rub, it will be punished in the market.
And I would not extrapolate beyond those coins to a general trend. Anyone who has cracked out a lot of coins will tell you about coins going up or down in grades when submitted to a different company and it is not always the same company that gives the lower grade.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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A 5 point swing when going from/to MS - AU needs to be looked at differently then an MS to MS or circulated to circulated grade. Within the MS and Circulated grades, a 2 point swing is big. But when the TPGs are too conservative or liberal on the MS definition, I could easily see a 63 going to 58 or even 55 in this case. That Peace $ has a lot of slide marks on the obverse, even though it appears to still have a lot of luster. JMHO
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@7Jaguars said:
Yea, IMHO CACG is fine but certainly NOT perfect. Only a single example but I had one Mercury Dime that had a CACG 58 FB go to PCGS 63 FB go to NGC 64 FB. It was an outstanding coin and have thought about sending it back to hosts - 1920 S which is not a bad date.The> @7Jaguars said:
Yea, IMHO CACG is fine but certainly NOT perfect. Only a single example but I had one Mercury Dime that had a CACG 58 FB go to PCGS 63 FB go to NGC 64 FB. It was an outstanding coin and have thought about sending it back to hosts - 1920 S which is not a bad date.
The higher grade isn't always the right grade. (Although submitters tend to think so.) If CACG is stricter on cabinet friction, for example, that doesn't make them "imperfect".
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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@MWallace said:
Which of the grading companies has a sister company that buys and sells coins and could benefit by buying lower grades and then reholdering at a higher grade? I'm not saying this is going on, I'm just asking.Such innuendo is beneath you.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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Interesting thread for sure. If anything, I suspect it shows that certain CACG details holders are likely to fetch a higher price than details holders from other TPGs based on speculation that they may straight grade. My only personal example is that I submitted this coin to CACG which came back XF Details, cleaned. I sold it as is and later saw it pop up in a straight grade NGC XF holder. I thought the coin had a decent shot to straight grade at CACG but wasn’t shocked by the result.
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@dval2929 said:
If you can show me pricing guides that price a CACG 55 to equal a PCGS 63, then your argument would start to make more sense.I'm arguing that the TPGs each have their own grading standards, and they're not exactly the same. Are you saying that all TPGs grade to the same standards?
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Opinions change even at the same grading service. This coin originally came back as questionable toning. When I got it back I said no way, there is hardly any toning at all. Cracked and resubmitted and it came back 64+.
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions1 -
No innuendo made. I clearly said "I'm not saying this is going on". Just asking a question.
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Hopefully.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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Something to think about also is someone from cacg would likely come out and say why these specific coins graded the way they did.
I'm sure there is noone at pcgs that will do that now like when David Hall was around.
I don't believe the presidential review is a thing anymore.0 -
@MWallace said:
No innuendo made. I clearly said "I'm not saying this is going on". Just asking a question.
Are you saying that you were actually unaware of the answer to your question? If so, I’m very surprised. And if not, why ask, other than for the purpose of innuendo?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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@MWallace said:
No innuendo made. I clearly said "I'm not saying this is going on". Just asking a question.
Then the answer would be that no grading companies could benefit by buying their lower grades and then reholdering at a higher grade since you are not saying this is going on. It could only be possible if you are saying it could be going on.
Can innuendo be made by asking questions worded to give one's self plausible deniability? I'm not saying this is going on, I'm just asking.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
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Grading service company, definitely not. Grading service employees? Why not? Is it nefarious for an employee to crack what they think is udergraded or gradeable coins and submit to their employer? Does PCGS have rules in place currently?
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@gtstang said:
Grading service company, definitely not. Grading service employees? Why not? Is it nefarious for an employee to crack what they think is udergraded or gradeable coins and submit to their employer? Does PCGS have rules in place currently?
It’s a potential issue if the grading service employee happens to be a grader.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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I have two or three CACG AU55 that should be MS62 (even by CACG's own standards), a "scratched" coin that is actually a die break, a "wiped" coin that believe is actually die scratches...
CACG = Can't Actually Conservatively Grade?
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@Maxvan1 said:
I have two or three CACG AU55 that should be MS62 (even by CACG's own standards), a "scratched" coin that is actually a die break, a "wiped" coin that believe is actually die scratches...CACG = Can't Actually Conservatively Grade?
Statements like this without pictures are meaningless.
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@Maxvan1 said:
I have two or three CACG AU55 that should be MS62 (even by CACG's own standards), a "scratched" coin that is actually a die break, a "wiped" coin that believe is actually die scratches...CACG = Can't Actually Conservatively Grade?
Do you post on their forum?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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In my opinion, I think this is a very unfair to both grading companies. It’s a very small sampling compared to the amount of coins they’ve graded over the years. I’m not gonna put any stake
in any of these grades or anything. I haven’t seen the pictures. I haven’t seen the coins so I’m moving on.The court jester does not play, but gently pulls the strings…
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@Coin Finder said:
In my opinion, I think this is a very unfair to both greeting companies. It’s a very small sampling compared to the amount of coins they’ve graded over the years. I’m not gonna put any stake
in any of these grades or anything._** I haven’t seen the pictures**_. I haven’t seen the coins so I’m moving on.Detail photos/video is in the linked video.
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Here are the slab pics from CAC.
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@TrickleCharge said:
Here are the slab pics from CAC.It looks like a 58 (or perhaps, 58+) to me.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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Not the AU55s but other coins from the same order. I may have been a little too aggressive in my critique and the mod locked my thread, but their responses also fed my animosity. The mod was like "you're on the clock to post a video of the cartwheel" - cartwheel is beside the point. If they call the final die state of a progression set scratched (clearly not a scratch), I'm skeptical they graded the prior progression states correctly. I think they mistook die scratches and die gouges as contact marks. I also submitted 8 PCGS/NGC coins (all the same year / variety) and not a single one crossed.
*I'll post pictures when I get home.
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@TrickleCharge said:
Here are the slab pics from CAC.Interesting. Looks like they didn’t like those dings on Liberty’s face and neck. Some larger scratches in the fields too. It’s a good looking 55 though.
I don’t have a CACG 26D in Au58, but in way of comparison, here are their photos of my 1926 S in AU58, and it’s pretty typical compared to my other CACG Peace Dollars in that grade I own (my MyCollect registry is linked below with high res photos-CAC’s registry doesn’t let you blow up photos to inspect)
.Newbie collector of type and circulated Peace dollars, photographer of places and animals, player of instruments and builder of amplifiers, espresso industry professional, and a person distracted by shiny objects.
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That doesn't look like a 55 to me.
I've also noticed over the last decade or so, grading companies are more likely to judge a little high point rub as "cabinet friction" rather than actual wear, which is probably accurate. I'm sure very few AU58's actually went into circulation. The difference between a 58-63 is whether you think it has a microscopic rub or not. I can see it swinging pretty easily one way or another. A 55 on the other hand...
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
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Love the die crack! That's a cool coin whatever it should grade.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
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@Maxvan1 said:
Not the AU55s but other coins from the same order. I may have been a little too aggressive in my critique and the mod locked my thread, but their responses also fed my animosity. The mod was like "you're on the clock to post a video of the cartwheel" - cartwheel is beside the point. If they call the final die state of a progression set scratched (clearly not a scratch), I'm skeptical they graded the prior progression states correctly. I think they mistook die scratches and die gouges as contact marks. I also submitted 8 PCGS/NGC coins (all the same year / variety) and not a single one crossed.
*I'll post pictures when I get home.
I’d be very surprised if they mistook mint-made die scratches and/or die gouges for contact marks. Why do you think you know better than they do? You should try to let go of your animosity (which will get you nowhere good) and be open to the possibility that they’re right.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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@cameonut2011 said:
Regardless of who was closer, a 5 point swing is alarming.
so, this would be the same as an MS62 coming back MS67?
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-60530 -
@SimonW said:
That doesn't look like a 55 to me.I agree. They’re so strict with what they call an AU58… I’m a bit worried I might not get my ‘34S in AU55 PCGS/CAC to cross at 55.
Newbie collector of type and circulated Peace dollars, photographer of places and animals, player of instruments and builder of amplifiers, espresso industry professional, and a person distracted by shiny objects.
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a 55 is not cabinet friction. a 58 or 58+ is
Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions2 -
I’m under the impression that if a coin is stickered, CACG will automatically cross it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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@MFeld I hope so… I’m a worrier by nature. 😉
Newbie collector of type and circulated Peace dollars, photographer of places and animals, player of instruments and builder of amplifiers, espresso industry professional, and a person distracted by shiny objects.
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I posted this one here a while ago. The consensus was that is was MS62, not a problem coin; cac's valuation: $195. How many people just give up when they get a discouraging problem grade and then just blow it out?
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To be fair it's realistically more like a 3 point grade swing. I don't think anyone would be likely to call it MS60 or MS61.
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My suggestion is if you want to cross a slabbed coin to CACG, that you put limitation notes in your submission so that if they determine it is going to grade less than the slab grade it's already in, they will return it to you. The other option is to buy it already holdered in CACG. In my view, when one is submitting to CACG, one must at least indicate that you do not want it slabbed if they are going to assign a details grade.
Regarding the Peace dollar being discussed, there must have been a wear determination first (yes, so not UNC) and then the marks made it 55 vs 58 in their assessment. Perhaps that's obvious, but luster is only one factor for the grade.
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I find CACG strict with Standing Liberty Quarters where friction is common on the leg. PCGS will grade these UNC and CACG will not. This is a big change from prior industry practice. Guess the Peace dollar is a similar situation.
Seated Half Society member #38
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress,
running like a water color in the rain...."2 -
As a buyer, I’m a fan of CACG coins. I’ve never bought one that disappointed.
If I played the submission game, I’d be wary. I’m thinking of crossing some tougher coins into their slabs for the first time, and I’m certainly wary.
Newbie collector of type and circulated Peace dollars, photographer of places and animals, player of instruments and builder of amplifiers, espresso industry professional, and a person distracted by shiny objects.
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The link to the cac verification on the 1926-D: https://www.cacgrading.com/cert/768783753
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deleted - mistakes were made
Newbie collector of type and circulated Peace dollars, photographer of places and animals, player of instruments and builder of amplifiers, espresso industry professional, and a person distracted by shiny objects.
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if putty were to be noted, neither service would grade it
Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions2 -
two grading services having differing opinions by 5 grades seems....problematic.
Absolutely IS problematic.
"Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
-Albert Einstein-Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.
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99.5% of my PCGS graded coins received green or gold CAC stickers over the years. I look for the best PCGS slabbed coins.
CACG can be very tough. Better than being too loose. I like CACG grading very much but not a fan of their slabs. When I try to pull their slabs out of my intercept box, my fingers can get snipped. I wish the CACG slab tops are more rounded like the PCGS slabs to avoid hurting my fingers.
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@mr1931S said:
two grading services having differing opinions by 5 grades seems....problematic.Absolutely IS problematic.
Not all five-grade differences are the same. And that aside, in this case, two of the five grades (60 and 61) aren’t used as often as most other grades.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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@dbldie55 said:
@cameonut2011 said:
Regardless of who was closer, a 5 point swing is alarming.
so, this would be the same as an MS62 coming back MS67?
Well, not really. You can turn a 69 into a 58 just by giving it a little rub. So 55 to 63 is easier to achieve than 62 to 67 simply by "ignoring" cabinet friction. The same with the details grades. If you tolerate a little light cleaning, an XF details becomes a straight XF.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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@TrickleCharge said:
To be fair it's realistically more like a 3 point grade swing. I don't think anyone would be likely to call it MS60 or MS61.I think of it as more like a one or 2 point swing. Take an UNC and give it a rub and it drops into the AU grades.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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Fair enough, but that is a huge difference. For what it is worth, I think you and Tom Bush are right in calling in a 58. A 63 is a crazy high grade for it, but it also looks silly to me in a 55 holder.
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