Italy: gold 20-lire of Umberto I, 1882-R

lordmarcovan · April 23, 2015 6:42PM

Italy: gold 20-lire of Umberto I, 1882-R

KM21, .900 gold/.01867 oz. Ex-Thomas Pollandt, Münzen am Zoo Berlin, through MA-Shops store, 4/23/2015.

I sold the 1877 French 20-franc piece in my Box of 20 set but ended up purchasing this other Latin Monetary Union equivalent from Italy. Though perhaps not as popular a design as the French "Angel", this coin is handsome enough. The German seller referred to the grade as "USA MS62", and based on the photos, I see no reason to disagree. It looks to be Mint State and might even be somewhat prooflike as well. I don't see how I can possibly lose on it, considering I paid only €275 ($300) for it and Krause lists this date at $500 in VF, $600 in XF, and $700 in UNC. So I paid a bit more than melt for it but considerably below VF price for a coin that is probably UNC.

Original listing
NGC/Krause priceguide trends

Wikipedia links:
Umberto I of Italy
Italian lira (Kingdom of Italy, 1861-1946)
Latin Monetary Union

When posted here, this coin was part of my "Eclectic Box of 20" collection.

JohnnyCache · April 23, 2015 10:49PM

Congratulations Lord M.

bronzemat · April 23, 2015 11:50PM

I would have kept the angel

Zohar · April 23, 2015 11:53PM

Lord M - this is a choice piece. Congrats!

lordmarcovan · April 24, 2015 12:17AM

<< <i>I would have kept the angel

>>

From a purely design standpoint, I would have, too, but ol' Umberto ain't bad. And I think he has more upside potential. I would imagine a lot of this Latin Monetary Union gold is rather generic in the marketplace, so the Angel (and this piece, I'll admit) were sort of "placeholders" or "stepping stones" for eventual use as swapstock all along.

I tend to be more likely to hang on to more historically interesting stuff like ancient or hammered medieval gold. But it's nice to have some so-called "generic" gold that can be moved quickly when I want to pursue something else. The Angel moved within a couple of hours of my putting it on BST. Something more esoteric, no matter how nice, might not have.

I know with all the constant reshuffling of my Box of 20, it must seem like I'm really flighty and more of a "flipper" than a collector these days. Truth be told, I've become a weird, mongrelized hybrid of the two. There are still "core" coins I'm likely to hold onto for a much longer term.

The others I still enjoy thoroughly, even if they end up getting "flipped" sooner rather than later.

Each coin that passes through my hands teaches me something along the way, too. And that I get to keep.

TwoKopeiki · April 24, 2015 2:45AM

That's a great-looking "placeholder", LordM!

Aethelred · April 24, 2015 2:47AM

<< <i>I would have kept the angel

>>

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with bronzemat.

WillieBoyd2 · April 24, 2015 7:11AM

This Switzerland coin which I have had since 1964 has a similar reverse design
as LM's nice Italian coin, with the wreath, shield and cross, but of course, no crown.

Switzerland Gold 20 Francs 1883

Gold is fun.

SYRACUSIAN · May 1, 2015 3:54AM

Very nice coin, always one of my favorites. I personally like it much better than the angel. De gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum.

LochNESS · May 1, 2015 4:27AM

If the book value holds, or goes up over time, this was a very smart move. Gold is gold. You paid just a bit over melt so even if the book value DOESN'T hold true, you can still turn a nice profit when spot rises.

Good job buddy!

lordmarcovan · May 2, 2015 5:13AM

Thanks, Dimitri and Nessie. I feel somewhat vindicated now.

Dimitri- now that you're back- there is another (less expensive) piece I want on MA-Shops but that particular seller (Kunker am Dom, I believe) won't ship to USA and I think they only accept bank transfers within the EU (no PayPal). Is there any chance I could later persuade you to be an EU intermediary for me, with all transaction costs reimbursed, of course? I say "later" because I spent the $ I was going to use to buy that coin, but if it is still available in a little while when I have funds again, I want it.

SYRACUSIAN · May 3, 2015 4:00AM

Rob,

I have no problem being your EU intermediary. If in doubt if I'm here or not, shoot a PM to Don and he will probably know (if anybody, it will be shroom). Regarding the bank transfers, I admit that I currently have a problem: with an ex communist party in power I tend to keep whatever savings I have outside the banks, for fear of a possible "haircut", Cyprus style.... But I have several friends who still believe in our banking system and several who buy coins from the MA shops, so no problem. Just send me a PM with whatever you want and I'll try my best to deliver as soon as possible.

D

lordmarcovan · May 5, 2015 9:16AM

Dimitri- thanks so much. I will PM you later tonight (tomorrow on your side of the ocean).

The OP coin is now in hand and is awesome. I think the seller was spot-on in calling it "USA MS62", though I could see it going MS63.

It does have a few stray marks in the fields consistent with a 62 grade, but I do think it is Mint State. Even if the slight flatness on the high points of Umberto's hair and a few of the shield lines are actual rub and not strike related, the worst I can envision it grading would be AU58.

And I bought it for below VF catalog, not TOO far above melt, so I don't foresee much if any downside there, if it's genuine, which it certainly appears to be.

But that's not the happiest part. In hand, this coin is so blazingly prooflike that if it had been an actual proof, it would be a solid CAM and maybe even DCAM!

It is VERY flashy. So I will hope for MS63 PL when it goes to a TPG.

Eventual TPG results notwithstanding, there is now little doubt in my mind that this was a good purchase.

PS- CAM or DCAM? OK, maybe not. But have you seen many of those Austrian "1915" restrike gold ducats; how flashy and prooflike they can be?

This looks like one of those.

SYRACUSIAN · May 5, 2015 5:28PM

Glad to hear all this Rob.

In fact, the Italian 20 lire, such as this 1882, rarely go for melt or near melt, like their more common French or Swiss cousins. As for certified examples in 63+, they often command a strong premium. They aren't nearly as common as angels or the common date 20 francs of Louis XVIII, it's a popular series all the way up to the one oz 100 lire and many of them have this P-L appearance, which on the downside, tends to make hairlines more visual than in other coins. Overall, I'd say

And for those who know you, it is not surprising to see you seeking a little bit of change in your numismatic holdings. Even though I respect the members who prefer the design of the angel, the fun with these coins is that you can buy and sell them at will, they are popular and available, so there's not much to feel sorry about.

WillieBoyd2 · July 28, 2015 5:59AM

Gold Umbertos?

On July 15, 2015, there were news reports about a German metal detector who found some gold coins
in containers with Nazi markings near Lüneburg, Germany.
The find was of 217 gold 20 Franc coins from Belgium (128), France (74), Italy (12), and Austria-Hungary (3).
The dates ranged from 1831 to 1910.

Could some of the 12 Italian coins might be like LM's Umberto coin but in not as nice shape.

lordmarcovan · July 28, 2015 4:06PM

<< <i>Gold Umbertos?

On July 15, 2015, there were news reports about a German metal detector who found some gold coins
in containers with Nazi markings near Lüneburg, Germany.
The find was of 217 gold 20 Franc coins from Belgium (128), France (74), Italy (12), and Austria-Hungary (3).
The dates ranged from 1831 to 1910.

Could some of the 12 Italian coins might be like LM's Umberto coin but in not as nice shape.

>>

Pretty likely, I would think, since most if not all of the coins in that hoard seem to have been Latin Monetary Union 20-franc equivalents.

Hussulo · July 29, 2015 6:11AM

Very nice Loed M. From the pictures it does look like it should make MS grade. I know its not a proof but it does look like it has a nice frosty proof look about it.

WillieBoyd2 · November 25, 2015 3:00PM

I bought a "random date" Italy 20 Lire from ApMex and guess what year they sent me?

Italy 20 Lire 1882 Gold

It goes well with my silver 2 lire coin which I have had since the 1960's:

Italy 2 Lire 1882 Silver

King Umberto is not ashamed to show both sides of his profile.

lordmarcovan · November 25, 2015 6:22PM

Hey, there's that guy again... and that date!

I just sold the OP coin on eBay. It was still raw. Lost money on it, too, but I needed to improve my cashflow situation for other newps, so oh well. Despite the modest loss, I certainly don't mind having owned it. The new owner is almost certainly going to be happy with it. I could never get proper pictures to show its prooflike contrast.

Italy: gold 20-lire of Umberto I, 1882-R

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