Tungsten filled AGE's

Meltdown · May 22, 2016 2:52PM

The seam should be visible inside the reverse rim with a good 10X loupe. Thanks for the warning to keep an eye out for these altered coins.

derryb · May 22, 2016 11:17PM

So, what led the buyer to the discovery they were altered?

ricko · May 22, 2016 11:30PM

Now that is different... and a lot of work....wish I could examine one in hand. Any magnification pictures of the edge?? Cheers, RickO

Coin Finder · May 22, 2016 11:50PM

What was the tell?

TwoSides2aCoin · May 22, 2016 11:51PM

The scheming mind knows no clear path to an honest days work for an honest days' wage.

ShadyDave · May 23, 2016 12:14AM

Originally posted by: Meltdown

I shop I frequent had a guy call last week with 5 AGE's he wanted to sell. He locked in the price over the phone and showed up about an hour later.

3 of them ended up being milled & filled with Tungsten. Looks like a pretty damn good job too. 1 of them even passed their spectro-anaylizer thing.

All of them ring pretty dead with the ping test... They confiscated the 3 and the guy who is a fairly regular buyer/seller swore he knew nothing.

I took some crappy phone pics but these are real AGE's with the Tungsten superglued inside... When snapped together tight, you can't really see the seam, they're pretty damn legit looking.

It looks like the weight is 34 grams (as seen in picture above) would be the easiest giveaway. Depending on the quality of the workmanship, the seam or cuts could be another obvious giveaway.

What I'm interested in knowing is what the "spectro-anaylizer thing" is....is it a Sigma Metalytics Precious Metal verifier?

CaptHenway · May 23, 2016 12:31AM

Obviously these could be all across the country, but where did this particular case happen?

CaptHenway · May 23, 2016 12:48AM

Originally posted by: ShadyDave

Originally posted by: Meltdown

I shop I frequent had a guy call last week with 5 AGE's he wanted to sell. He locked in the price over the phone and showed up about an hour later.

3 of them ended up being milled & filled with Tungsten. Looks like a pretty damn good job too. 1 of them even passed their spectro-anaylizer thing.

All of them ring pretty dead with the ping test... They confiscated the 3 and the guy who is a fairly regular buyer/seller swore he knew nothing.

I took some crappy phone pics but these are real AGE's with the Tungsten superglued inside... When snapped together tight, you can't really see the seam, they're pretty damn legit looking.

It looks like the weight is 34 grams (as seen in picture above) would be the easiest giveaway. Depending on the quality of the workmanship, the seam or cuts could be another obvious giveaway.

What I'm interested in knowing is what the "spectro-anaylizer thing" is....is it a Sigma Metalytics Precious Metal verifier?

Standard weight 33.931 grams of 22KT gold. A reading of 34 grams on a scale like that is not going to show anything.

CaptHenway · May 23, 2016 12:52AM

What was the weight of the tungsten plug? That will show how much 22kt gold is missing.

keets · May 23, 2016 12:52AM

It looks like the weight is 34 grams (as seen in picture above) would be the easiest giveaway.

weight is actually 33.931, why would a difference of .069 on a store scale be an easy giveaway??

messydesk · May 23, 2016 12:56AM

Originally posted by: CaptHenway

What was the weight of the tungsten plug? That will show how much 22kt gold is missing.

So would weighing the remaining gold without the plug.

Coin Finder · May 23, 2016 1:00AM

A AGE should ring when hit on the rim, if it did not that could be a tell....

asheland · May 23, 2016 1:20AM

Originally posted by: TwoSides2aCoin
The scheming mind knows no clear path to an honest days work for an honest days' wage.

Very true!

BAJJERFAN · May 23, 2016 1:20AM

Originally posted by: PerryHall

The seam should be visible inside the reverse rim with a good 10X loupe. Thanks for the warning to keep an eye out for these altered coins.

Also the reeds would have to line up exactly, if anyone bothered to look.

derryb · May 23, 2016 1:28AM

since gold is heavier than tungsten it would seem that more tungsten would have to be added than gold that was removed. When it comes to comparing tungsten weight to gold weight (they are very close) scale accuracy is paramount. If the accuracy of the scale pictured is not in question, then the difference in what was measured and what it should have been would have been an indicator that further analysis/visual inspection was necessary. Detecting tungsten filled bullion requires a very precise and accurate quality scale.

Also the reeds would have to line up exactly, if anyone bothered to look.

Pics appear to indicate coin was machined just inside the reverse rim, not on the edge.

Meltdown · May 23, 2016 1:43AM

The machining was just on the inside of the reverse. You can see the seem in the photos because the coin was forced open. As I understand it, it was nearly invisible when brought in and the plug was super glued inside. The machining was very precise/professional.

Also, they did not "ping" like a real eagle does... I tried it myself, they just sounded dead.

derryb · May 23, 2016 1:52AM

So, how did the buyer initially determine there was a problem with them?

Meltdown · May 23, 2016 1:56AM

They test everything. 2 of them did not pass their analysis machine and 3 of the 5 did not ping.

derryb · May 23, 2016 2:02AM

Originally posted by: Meltdown
They test everything. 2 of them did not pass their analysis machine and 3 of the 5 did not ping.

Was the analysis machine a sigma PMV? Testing everything is a good thing.

Meltdown · May 23, 2016 2:04AM

Yes it was.

derryb · May 23, 2016 2:08AM

Originally posted by: Meltdown
Yes it was.

My experience with the sigma is to test both sides of a coin or multiple locations on a bar and to do so with more than one probe. If enough gold thickness was left on the side of the coin that was read by the sigma, then the sigma would not see a problem. I like the sigma, so far.

CaptHenway · May 23, 2016 2:41AM

Originally posted by: derryb

since gold is heavier than tungsten it would seem that more tungsten would have to be added than gold that was removed. When it comes to comparing tungsten weight to gold weight (they are very close) scale accuracy is paramount. If the accuracy of the scale pictured is not in question, then the difference in what was measured and what it should have been would have been an indicator that further analysis/visual inspection was necessary. Detecting tungsten filled bullion requires a very precise and accurate quality scale.

Also the reeds would have to line up exactly, if anyone bothered to look.

Pics appear to indicate coin was machined just inside the reverse rim, not on the edge.

The seam could appear on either the obverse or the reverse. The way this type of alteration works (think the two-headed or two-tailed magician coins), they destroy, by grinding out, the reverse of Coin A to leave a cup with the obverse and the reeded edge intact; they destroy the obverse of Coin B to leave a reverse and the reeded edge intact, and then they cut Coin C in half, remove the reeded edges and grind the obverse and reverse faces as thin as they can and then match them up with the appropriate tungsten-filled cups.

TD

Baley · May 23, 2016 5:04AM

Yeah, this event is not going to improve liquidity of AGEs

PerryHall · May 23, 2016 5:35AM

Originally posted by: Baley

Yeah, this event is not going to improve liquidity of AGEs

I doubt this will stop anyone with a quality 10X loupe and a brain from buying AGE's. Of course buyers will actually have to take the time to examine the AGE's before they buy them.

CaptHenway · May 23, 2016 6:20AM

Originally posted by: derryb

since gold is heavier than tungsten it would seem that more tungsten would have to be added than gold that was removed. When it comes to comparing tungsten weight to gold weight (they are very close) scale accuracy is paramount. If the accuracy of the scale pictured is not in question, then the difference in what was measured and what it should have been would have been an indicator that further analysis/visual inspection was necessary. Detecting tungsten filled bullion requires a very precise and accurate quality scale.

Also the reeds would have to line up exactly, if anyone bothered to look.

Pics appear to indicate coin was machined just inside the reverse rim, not on the edge.

The density of tungsten is 19.25. The density of pure gold is 19.30, but since it is alloyed gold the density of the alloy is approx. 17.5. Thus the tungsten takes up less volume than the gold alloy removed, perhaps leaving room for the glue on either side of the tungsten.

TD

hchcoin · May 23, 2016 6:23AM

It never ceases to amaze me the crazy things criminals will do. Good catch by the shop owner. Thanks for sharing and providing pictures. Being a coin dealer sure comes with some risks. Theft, armed robbery, doctored coins, counterfeit coins, counterfeit metal. Makes me think about the thread a week or so ago on the coin forum where someone was asking about pricing coins who wanted to be a dealer. Hope they think about these types of things as well.

CaptHenway · May 23, 2016 6:26AM

You know how the fake silver bars are usually sold in plastic shells? I'll bet these will be offered in Capital Plastic holders or some other kind of holder that is a nuisance to open so you can check the coin.

Meltdown · May 23, 2016 7:10AM

The tungsten plug weighed 22grams.

PerryHall · May 23, 2016 7:11AM

Originally posted by: CaptHenway

You know how the fake silver bars are usually sold in plastic shells? I'll bet these will be offered in Capital Plastic holders or some other kind of holder that is a nuisance to open so you can check the coin.

You should be able to examine the inside rim for a seam with a 10X loupe even if it's in a clear plastic holder. The ring test would be a little more difficult though.

CaptHenway · May 23, 2016 8:09AM

Originally posted by: Meltdown

The tungsten plug weighed 22grams. That's all I learned today when I stopped in.

Thanks. So just under 2/3rds of the gold is gone.

Timbuk3 · May 23, 2016 8:23AM

Thanks !!!

CaptHenway · May 23, 2016 10:39PM

Originally posted by: CaptHenway

You know how the fake silver bars are usually sold in plastic shells? I'll bet these will be offered in Capital Plastic holders or some other kind of holder that is a nuisance to open so you can check the coin.

Or fake slabs.

ricko · May 23, 2016 11:48PM

Looking at the process described by CaptHenway, it is a lot of work... not sure the profit margin is really worth it.... Cheers, RickO

Coin Finder · May 24, 2016 12:07AM

Tungsten seems like it would difficult to work with... It is a very dense heavy metal.

CaptHenway · May 24, 2016 2:31AM

Despite the splunge, 2/3rds of an ounce of gold is still over $800. That's a pretty hefty gross profit.

Meltdown · May 24, 2016 5:08AM

Hey guys. I decided to take down the posting for now while the matter is still being dealt with.
The post was meant to be cautionary & informational.

derryb · May 24, 2016 6:11AM

Originally posted by: Meltdown
Hey guys. I decided to take down the posting for now while the matter is still being dealt with.
The post was meant to be cautionary & informational.

That it was. Keep us posted of further developments.

CaptHenway · May 26, 2016 6:10AM

Just curious as to how tight that seam is. What would happen if you took a small beaker of water with a drop of dishwashing detergent in it to break up the surface tension and stood the coin on edge in the beaker? Would air bubble out of the seam at the top as water leaked into the coin?

TD

Tungsten filled AGE's

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