Home Precious Metals

Bill in Congress REQUIRES the Secretary of the Treasury to mint a Palladium bullion coin.

CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
Started this over on U.S. coins, but perhaps I should have posted it here.

There has been talk about H.R. 1698, and the fact that it allows the government to change the fineness of existing .900 fine silver coins to a higher fineness. Some reports have it promoting .910 fine silver, but it does not actually say that. It just allows a higher but undefined fineness. Some reports say that it makes a Palladium bullion coin more possible and/or more likely.

However, in reading through the bill and plugging the proposed changes into the existing U.S. code, I see that it REQUIRES the Secretary of the Treasury to strike said Palladium coin.

Here is the existing U.S. Code on the Palladium bullion coin:

(v) Palladium Bullion Investment Coins. -
(1) In general. - Subject to the submission to the Secretary and the Congress of a marketing study described in paragraph (8), beginning not more than 1 year after the submission of the study to the Secretary and the Congress, the Secretary shall mint and issue the palladium coins described in paragraph (12) of subsection (a) in such quantities as the Secretary may determine to be appropriate to meet demand.
(2) Source of bullion. -
(A) In general. - The Secretary shall acquire bullion for the palladium coins issued under this subsection by purchase of palladium mined from natural deposits in the United States, or in a territory or possession of the United States, within 1 year after the month in which the ore from which it is derived was mined. If no such palladium is available or if it is not economically feasible to obtain such palladium, the Secretary may obtain palladium for the palladium coins described in paragraph (12) of subsection (a) from other available sources.


There is more, but these two paragraphs contain the important changes, which if you plug in the changes will read like this:

(v) Palladium Bullion Investment Coins. -
(1) In general. - The Secretary shall mint and issue the palladium coins described in paragraph (12) of subsection (a) in such quantities as the Secretary may determine to be appropriate to meet demand.
(2) Source of bullion. -
(A) In general. – To the greatest extent possible, the Secretary shall acquire bullion for the palladium coins issued under this subsection by purchase of palladium mined from natural deposits in the United States, or in a territory or possession of the United States, within 1 year after the month in which the ore from which it is derived was mined. If no such palladium is available or if it is not economically feasible to obtain such palladium, the Secretary may obtain palladium for the palladium coins described in paragraph (12) of subsection (a) from other available sources.

The study results are thrown out, and it would now say "The Secretary shall mint and issue the palladium coins described...." No ifs, ands or buts about it. He has to issue them.

There is an additional change in paragraph 5 that says Treasury "may issue collectible versions of..." the coins. Not as big an issue as the fact that the bill mandates the issuance of the coins in the first place.

The Bill has passed the House and is in the Senate, which has just returned from the Fourth of July break.

TD

Edited to add: Paragraph 8 of the current code states:

(8) Marketing study defined. - The market study described in paragraph (1) means an analysis of the market for palladium bullion investments conducted by a reputable, independent third party that demonstrates that there would be adequate demand for palladium bullion coins produced by the United States Mint to ensure that such coins could be minted and issued at no net cost to taxpayers.

H.R. 1698 strikes out Paragraph 8 completely, allowing the program to operate at a net cost to taxpayers.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
«1

Comments

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,111 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The Secretary shall mint and issue the palladium coins described in paragraph (12) of subsection (a) in such quantities as the Secretary may determine to be appropriate to meet demand." >>


    Secretary gets to determine if and how much just as before the change.

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>The Secretary shall mint and issue the palladium coins described in paragraph (12) of subsection (a) in such quantities as the Secretary may determine to be appropriate to meet demand." >>


    Secretary gets to determine if and how much just as before the change. >>



    Yes, but he would be required to strike SOME, unlike the current situation where he has the option to strike NONE.

    I am sure that the miners who bought the law do not care if the Treasury is forced to buy the metal, strike the coins and then sit on them.

    Or what happens if he says "Fine! We'll strike 1,000 of them and that's it!" Instant demand that did not exist before, and another uncollectible U.S. coin.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • rawteam1rawteam1 Posts: 2,472 ✭✭✭
    Well with zero and negative demand, how many u think they will mint???...
    keceph `anah
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,296 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Well with zero and negative demand, how many u think they will mint???... >>



    Good point. I can see some fairly low mintages in this coin's future.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,302 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Both before and after says shall mint and issue in such quantities as the Secretary may determine appropriate to meet demand.

    Before "shall mint and issue the palladium coins described in paragraph (12) of subsection (a) in such quantities as the Secretary may determine to be appropriate to meet demand."


    After "shall mint and issue the palladium coins described in paragraph (12) of subsection (a) in such quantities as the Secretary may determine to be appropriate to meet demand."

    Note, the Secretary may determine whatever he or she thinks is appropriate, but isn't necessarily required to determine in favor of issuing the coin.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The first says "subject to the report." The report said it would not be profitable.

    The second just says he's gotta do it.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I do not see these as a big demand item...unless the mintage is very low..and then it will just be a fast flippers paradise without lasting interest. Cheers, RickO
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,302 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The first says "subject to the report." The report said it would not be profitable.

    The second just says he's gotta do it.


    I could always be wrong about this, but...

    Both old and new versions state "shall issue" and "(a) in such quantities as the Secretary may determine to be appropriate to meet demand" but I don't interpret it to say that he's gotta do it.

    What if he determines that it's not appropriate to mint the coins based on low demand?

    Maybe they'll mint the coins, but I think it's still at the discretion of the Secretary, based on his evaluation of the demand. As much as I like low-mintage Modern Bullion coins, I don't think I'd be interested in palladium coins. Not very liquid and too large of a buy-sell spread, I think.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • LochNESSLochNESS Posts: 4,829 ✭✭✭
    This is why I'm not a politician. Can't make sense of all that mumbo jumbo. It's all Greek to me. Which reminds me, I need to mail the people of Greece a thank you note for voting not to accept the bailout proposal, thus driving down the price of silver to a 5-year low. Now I can afford to stack more silver image
    ANA LM • WBCC 429

    Amat Colligendo Focum

    Top 10FOR SALE

    image
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have a Guest Commentary in Coin World Online this week on this subject.

    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • BBNBBN Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭
    Why are our bullion coin in the US .90 instead of .999 like the rest of the bullion coining nations? Not sure the reason unless there's a politician getting his wallet nourished by someone that owns a silver or base metal mine.

    Positive BST Transactions (buyers and sellers): wondercoin, blu62vette, BAJJERFAN, privatecoin, blu62vette, AlanLastufka, privatecoin

    #1 1951 Bowman Los Angeles Rams Team Set
    #2 1980 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
    #8 (and climbing) 1972 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Why are our bullion coin in the US .90 instead of .999 like the rest of the bullion coining nations? Not sure the reason unless there's a politician getting his wallet nourished by someone that owns a silver or base metal mine. >>



    Our silver bullion coins are the American Eagles and the America The Beautiful five ounce hockey pucks. Both are .999 fine silver.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,302 ✭✭✭✭✭
    .90 was arrived at because it resists wear much better than .999
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The bill that requires the Secretary of the Treasury to buy palladium and strike one ounce bullion coins from it just passed as an attachment to the recent Transportation Act, which was signed into law on Dec. 4.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,549 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is this another wasteful govt program?
    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Score a point for the palladium industry lobbyists image

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • OPAOPA Posts: 17,104 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Baley
    Score a point for the palladium industry lobbyists image


    What next? A Rhodium coin?image
    "Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
  • BBNBBN Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭
    Titanium heart shape coins with Chocolate Diamonds® by LeVian®. All around winner and scooped up in piles by PT Barnum's minions of fools.

    Positive BST Transactions (buyers and sellers): wondercoin, blu62vette, BAJJERFAN, privatecoin, blu62vette, AlanLastufka, privatecoin

    #1 1951 Bowman Los Angeles Rams Team Set
    #2 1980 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
    #8 (and climbing) 1972 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,302 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I still say that the Secretary can find it appropriate to issue zero coins. The chance of that happening however, is probably very low.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • OverdateOverdate Posts: 6,902 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Assuming he chooses to issue any coins at all, the Secretary's initial guess as to the amount of demand is irrelevant. This is a bullion coin, and if the premium charged to dealers by the Mint is in line with premiums charged on the other PMs, the entire initial allocation will sell out fairly quickly. The Secretary likely will then revise his demand estimate upward and strike more. This would have been the case with platinum eagles also had the Mint been required to strike them to demand. The market had no problem absorbing the 16,900 platinum eagles issued in 2014, and premiums on all platinum eagles remain high due to unfulfilled demand.

    My Adolph A. Weinman signature :)

  • tincuptincup Posts: 4,748 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would buy one. So, I guess that means there is some demand, however small...
    ----- kj
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: baseball

    Was there anything about the packaging for the Buffalo gold coins as you suspected there might be?









    Yes, that was included in the bill as passed. No word as to how they will package future ones to keep them from scratching. That is a serious retail problem with 24kt gold.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Overdate

    Assuming he chooses to issue any coins at all, the Secretary's initial guess as to the amount of demand is irrelevant. This is a bullion coin, and if the premium charged to dealers by the Mint is in line with premiums charged on the other PMs, the entire initial allocation will sell out fairly quickly. The Secretary likely will then revise his demand estimate upward and strike more. This would have been the case with platinum eagles also had the Mint been required to strike them to demand. The market had no problem absorbing the 16,900 platinum eagles issued in 2014, and premiums on all platinum eagles remain high due to unfulfilled demand.




    Would the palladium coins be available for direct purchase?
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,111 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: BAJJERFAN
    Originally posted by: Overdate
    Assuming he chooses to issue any coins at all, the Secretary's initial guess as to the amount of demand is irrelevant. This is a bullion coin, and if the premium charged to dealers by the Mint is in line with premiums charged on the other PMs, the entire initial allocation will sell out fairly quickly. The Secretary likely will then revise his demand estimate upward and strike more. This would have been the case with platinum eagles also had the Mint been required to strike them to demand. The market had no problem absorbing the 16,900 platinum eagles issued in 2014, and premiums on all platinum eagles remain high due to unfulfilled demand.


    Would the palladium coins be available for direct purchase?

    Like silver and gold, not any bulk bullion eagles. Any special collectors versions (i.e. proofs) would be available for direct mint purchase.

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: derryb

    Originally posted by: BAJJERFAN

    Originally posted by: Overdate

    Assuming he chooses to issue any coins at all, the Secretary's initial guess as to the amount of demand is irrelevant. This is a bullion coin, and if the premium charged to dealers by the Mint is in line with premiums charged on the other PMs, the entire initial allocation will sell out fairly quickly. The Secretary likely will then revise his demand estimate upward and strike more. This would have been the case with platinum eagles also had the Mint been required to strike them to demand. The market had no problem absorbing the 16,900 platinum eagles issued in 2014, and premiums on all platinum eagles remain high due to unfulfilled demand.




    Would the palladium coins be available for direct purchase?


    Like silver and gold, not any bulk bullion eagles. Any special collectors versions (i.e. proofs) would be available for direct mint purchase.







    The law also provides for the selling of what the Mint calls "Uncirculated" coins, which the hobby typically calls "Burnished Uncirculated." Such coins typically have a mint mark, while the bullion grade coins do not.



    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,302 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So, we are potentially looking at 3 different 1 oz coins for each year?



    Generally I'm in favor of coins, but if this flies I don't see why they can't just go with a precious metals-based monetary system. Oh, wait. Never mind, for a minute there I lost my mind.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: jmski52

    So, we are potentially looking at 3 different 1 oz coins for each year?







    Generally I'm in favor of coins, but if this flies I don't see why they can't just go with a precious metals-based monetary system. Oh, wait. Never mind, for a minute there I lost my mind.




    The bullion grade Palladium ounce is required. The Proof and "Uncirculated" collectors versions are permitted. The Mint could issue one, two or three.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I see a minor bump in Palladium today, around $20. Think the new coin will cause much of a move?



    For the record, I own none.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Obviously it did not. Look out below!!!!!!!
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • OverdateOverdate Posts: 6,902 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Palladium $491.

    My Adolph A. Weinman signature :)

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't see why they can't just go with a precious metals-based monetary system.



    Because they would Never circulate; dudes like us would insist on withdrawing them from circulation, hoarding them, putting them in albums, getting them slabbed, and selling them to each other for a profit image

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,549 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Verily. We don't even circulate zincolns.
    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,302 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Verily. We don't even circulate zincolns.



    Verily, can you imagine a liquor store holdup if there is no cash?
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,549 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: jmski52
    Verily. We don't even circulate zincolns.



    Verily, can you imagine a liquor store holdup if there is no cash?


    Sounds like you could be advocating a cashless society.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,302 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sounds like you could be advocating a cashless society.



    I'll be one of the last people to advocate that. Why donate to the banking system any more than necessary? Why leave a bigger trail for identity thieves than necessary?
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,794 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The CEO ought to sign the order, bypassing Congress. He does it with so many other 'non essential' business matters. Sorry. I didn't mean to go politico regarding "laws".
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,794 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: cohodk
    Originally posted by: jmski52
    Verily. We don't even circulate zincolns.



    Verily, can you imagine a liquor store holdup if there is no cash?


    Sounds like you could be advocating a cashless society.



    Dr Judd is rolling over in his grave laughing.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No word yet as to when the Mint will begin striking the one ounce palladium bullion coins.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,794 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: CaptHenway
    No word yet as to when the Mint will begin striking the one ounce palladium bullion coins.


    My initial thoughts were to wait and see when the price of palladium suddenly spikes, then expect the new release. And for a few,,,, a huge windfall. And why coin dealers drink is anyone's guess. image
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have not yet seen a date for the 2016 ASE's..... anyone heard anything? Cheers, RickO
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mint considering issuing fractional palladium coins as well. From Coin World:



    http://www.coinworld.com/news/...n-us-mint-radar.1.html
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Palladium up $28 as I speak.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Palladium up $20 on the day. I wonder if the Mint has started buying?
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,302 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It looks like you bought at the right time!
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Stillwater Mining's stock price is doing well.



    http://www.dailyfinance.com/qu...ter-mining-company/swc
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Coin World Online that came out Saturday has a good story and a good editorial on the new U.S. palladium coins.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,111 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: CaptHenway
    Mint considering issuing fractional palladium coins as well. From Coin World:

    http://www.coinworld.com/news/...n-us-mint-radar.1.html


    "Although the original legislation authorizing the palladium coin also sought bullion versions, the Mint had pretty much abandoned the thought of producing bullion versions after a contracted feasibility study concluded the bullion palladium option would be unprofitable. The same study also concluded collector versions offered financial promise."

    I would prefer the bullion coins. Proofs are gonna be a bit pricey for a pure bullion play.

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Palladium up to $591.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    And it went back down, and now it is back up. Don't know if the Mint has made their buying move yet or not.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Up to $615 now.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Sign In or Register to comment.