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Why such love for David Ortiz?

craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
Watching the pregame gushing over ortiz and I am left wondering just why so much love for this particular PED user? I can't think of another of the PED crew as beloved as Ortiz. Is it because of his love for the media? I am just not sure. They were talking about his hof candidacy as if the PED stuff is forgotten. I guess he has a Teflon coating. To me, there is no way he belongs in Cooperstown. Does anyone else find it suspicious that he is having his best year at the age of 40 with two bad feet? They still don't test for hgh.

George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

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Comments

  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭
    When your nickname is Big Papi you get a pass. It's that simple.



    mark
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  • jay0791jay0791 Posts: 3,508 ✭✭✭✭
    I love big Papi

    PEDs don't put the bat on the ball.

    He has mastered the art of hitting

    Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets
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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: jay0791

    I love big Papi



    PEDs don't put the bat on the ball.









    You don't think PEDS helped mcgwire, bonds and sosa? Denial much?

    The last player who dominated the league like this at age 40 was, you guessed it, Barry bonds.

    Ortiz is just another PED guy. Likeable, but still a cheater who should never sniff the hall. And this coming from 30 year sox fan.



    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,480 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Justacommeman

    When your nickname is Big Papi you get a pass. It's that simple.



    mark




    +1



    His speech to the crowd after the Boston bombing, complete with expletives also endeared him to many.



    Sometimes, the personality is as big as the player. He is the anti-Bonds~not surly with fans or the media~and he also had some huge games in the postseason and was instrumental in bringing home World Series championships to the city of Boston.



    This upcoming HOF vote will be a telling one. As we are witnessing a changing of the guard with respect to the HOF voting demographics, we will see if players like Bonds or Clemens realize a bump in their voting percentage. For many younger fans, the PED issues are not as abhorrent and many view it as just another era in baseball and should be simply viewed in that context. I'm not saying I agree with that viewpoint, but it is out there.


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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I see what you mean grote, but look at how universally loved sosa and mcgwire were after the home run race. When their ped allegations were made public, their popularity plummeted. I just wonder why the pass for Ortiz. It's not just the younger demographic, most of the talking heads are just gushing over him.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • PM770PM770 Posts: 320 ✭✭
    I've been wondering this same thing for a while now.

    And he shouldn't be compared to Bonds, its Sosa who was great with the fans and media too. Why does Ortiz get a pass and Sosa get killed?
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Your right pm770. Sosa is the better example. He was a media darling and after the PED scandal, his career has really been disregarded. Almost like it never happened. But Ortiz is lauded as this great hitter and wonderful personality. He is getting the ripken treatment and I can't understand why. Will he be the first PED player to make the hall?

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,480 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sosa's love affair with the media and fans turned sour pretty quickly after he was exposed.



    I think the perspective on PEDs has changed over the past decade or so. The next HOF vote will be a good barometer of just how much.



    Ortiz is a fan favorite right now. Fans can be fickle with their adulation. I don't read too much into it, but unlike Bonds and Sosa, Ortiz also has multiple rings, too.



    Perhaps Paul can chime in (perkdog). He's as big a Sox fan as I know on here


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  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: grote15

    Sosa's love affair with the media and fans turned sour pretty quickly after he was exposed.



    I think the perspective on PEDs has changed over the past decade or so. The next HOF vote will be a good barometer of just how much.



    Ortiz is a fan favorite right now. Fans can be fickle with their adulation. I don't read too much into it, but unlike Bonds and Sosa, Ortiz also has multiple rings, too.



    Perhaps Paul can chime in (perkdog). He's as big a Sox fan as I know on here




    A lot can change during the 5 years before he is eligible



    mark

    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • PM770PM770 Posts: 320 ✭✭
    Originally posted by: grote15
    I think the perspective on PEDs has changed over the past decade or so. The next HOF vote will be a good barometer of just how much.


    If all the PED guys start getting in then it would make more sense, but these guys are still pretty far away. Bonds and Clemens are still under 50% four years in. Sosa got just 7%.

  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,480 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: PM770

    Originally posted by: grote15

    I think the perspective on PEDs has changed over the past decade or so. The next HOF vote will be a good barometer of just how much.





    If all the PED guys start getting in then it would make more sense, but these guys are still pretty far away. Bonds and Clemens are still under 50% four years in. Sosa got just 7%.







    Bonds and Clemens may very well get in and this year's vote will be a good indicator of their chances. Both those guys were HOFers even without steroids. Sosa on the other hand is nowhere near the HOF without the juice.





    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 29,361 ✭✭✭✭✭
    David Ortiz is probably the most clutch player in Red Sox history, that adds to all the fanfare. As far as the PED use its all about timing, guys from Bonds era cheated everyone and shocked the country, by the time Ortiz got around to sticking needles in himself the shock and newness of PEDs was not huge news anymore.
  • travis ttravis t Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭
    This discussion is representative of what happens when the media loves you. It is obvious that Ortiz is widely regarded as a current ambassador of the game. Nothing to sully his reputation as long as he keeps smiling and communicating.



    Sosa, McGwire, Clemens and Bonds are examples of what can happen when the media abandons you. Your reputation is controlled by opinions, many of which belong to people who are paid to share them.



    Control. You can believe what you want to believe. Or let them tell you.
  • 59Horsehide59Horsehide Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    Unlike Bonds, Sosa, and lots of others, Big Papi appears to have made a sincere commitment to the young kids of today. He does this in the way he addresses youngsters and as he showed when introduced during the All-Star game; the kid that he ushered out was on cloud nine.

    Jim
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Peds may be old news, but the superstars who did them are roundly hated except for Ortiz. Is it because he is not a historically great player like bonds or Clemens or didn't blow past all time numbers like mcgwire and sosa? I wonder if fans feel like he doesn't threaten the mount Rushmore of baseball greats with his numbers so it is ok to give him a pass because of his outgoing personality.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • TabeTabe Posts: 5,920 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I was asking this same question on another forum about Ortiz. He gets a free pass for a failed PED test - and let's face it, he's almost certainly still using - but other guys don't. It's really all about the personality and market you play in. If you're well-liked and play in a big market (Ortiz, Pettite), you're OK. If you're NOT well-liked (A-Rod, Bonds, Clemens), you get vilified.
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You may have hit the nail on the head tabe. I think it's pretty clear he is still using. Players historically don't have their greatest season at age 40.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,480 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think for many fans the PED issue has become a wearisome topic of discussion. The problem with PEDs is that there is no way to know for sure who is using and who isn't (absent a failed drug test). NO player is above suspicion, imo. It would be naive to think otherwise.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 29,361 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: grote15
    I think for many fans the PED issue has become a wearisome topic of discussion. The problem with PEDs is that there is no way to know for sure who is using and who isn't (absent a failed drug test). NO player is above suspicion, imo. It would be naive to think otherwise.

    I agree, and a few years ago the guys who have man love for Griff and Ripken refused to believe that it was possible that their heroes never touched the stuff, I'm not saying they did or didn't but you can't discount the possibility that they did.
  • MCMLVToppsMCMLVTopps Posts: 4,581 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Craig44



    You've done nothing but vilify Ortiz in your onging posts. You have become the self-appointed judge and jury of this thread...and your comment "I think it's pretty clear he is still using" is below bush league in my book. You only have an opinion, nothing more...do you have PROOF of your allegations? Do you really know he "has bad feet" and if so, what does that matter? I suspect if he did have "bad feet", whatever that is, wouldn't the prudent person surmise that he would be under doctor's care? He doesn't play a Xander-like position, he just swings a bat, with an occasional opportunity to hustle along the bases.



    Ortiz failed a test in 2003, some 13 years ago. To my knowledge (yes I tried searching) he has not failed anything in all that time.



    Sadly, you fail to recognize (though Paul did), Ortiz's clutch hitting performance throughout his time with the Red Sox...only what you perceive as negative stuff, ad nauseum. Then the thread dribbles into the real losers and comparisons are made to Ortiz's current performance against theirs...isn't the thread header "Why such love for David Ortiz?"...perhaps you should have written "Let's compare Ortiz to the other known PED users"...for this is what it has sadly come down to.



    Ortiz is in the twilight of his time. He may well make Cooperstown, but for sure the day will come when #34 will be enshrined on the façade of the upper right field area of Fenway.



    I think Ortiz's contributions to the Red Sox, and baseball on and off the field, far, FAR outway anything he may, or may not have done in his past.



    I could just as easily condemn you for something that isn't true...so, so easy to hide behind a keyboard...I trust you get the comparison.



    This from a way more than 50 year Red Sox fan.



  • galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 7,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't know if Ortiz is on something, but what I do know is his run during the '13 WS was one of the sickest exhibitions I've ever witnessed. (I was at 3, 4 & 5.)



    St. Louis had no answer. Papi was in such a zone that it mattered not if the Cardinals brought in a lefty and stacked the right side; almost every at-bat he caught a pitch on the screws.



    .688 BA, .760 OBP for the series. Will never forget that performance as long as I live.
  • larryallen73larryallen73 Posts: 6,055 ✭✭✭
    In my opinion it's impossible to know who cheats and who doesn't. It seems that a large percentage of professional athletes probably do something but we don't know. Ortiz comes across as a nice guy so why can't we just enjoy him!? I am not a Red Sox fan but I don't understand why the haters.
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Below bush league" really? You don't think he is still using? Ortiz is having his best statistical year at age 40. What historical precedent is there for that happening in baseball history, other that the PED crew? You do understand there are other peds than anabolic steroids don't you? Some can only be caught using blood testing, which mlb doesn't use. I think you are either a bit naive or the fan boy in you is coming out. As far as proof of my allegations, well, there is that failed drug test.... keep in mind, everyone realizes that bonds and Clemens juiced. They never failed a drug test. There is circumstantial evidence, such as a 40 year old putting up his greatest statistical season.



    As far as my "bad feet" comment, I was alluding to how very unlikely it is that Ortiz is in the midst of his greatest season while playing with two very injured/comprimised feet and doing it cleanly. That is why he is retiring at the end of the year by the way, his feet and Achilles are so bad.



    I understand ortiz's "clutch" hitting feats. I watched them all. The difference between you and I is that I disregard them due to his PED use. Just as I disregard all the records and accolades of bonds, mcgwire, Clemens, sosa etc. Do you think bonds could have hit 73 homers without the juice? Of course not. Would Ortiz have performed in the clutch as he did without peds? Of course not. He probably would have continued his career on a similar trajectory as it was on when he was a twin. Isn't it amazing that when he becomes a teammate of Manny Ramirez, his statistics take a monumental leap, and then he fails a drug test.



    Don't romanticize Ortiz. He was little more than an above average player until he was introduced to peds and became a hero. He is a cheat, and his statistics and clutch hitting were both artificially enhanced by drugs the same way as the rest of the "hated" ped crew. He just has an outgoing personality the media and fans seem to have latched on to. As far as comparing him to the rest of the ped guys, of course I do. Who else to compare him to? How else do we try to explain his standing without comparing him to others in the same situation ? I think your glasses are too rose colored to see ortiz for what he is, a drug cheat who accumulated false statistics and will never sniff the hof.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 29,361 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wait a minute Craig, you don't recognize Ortiz and what he has done for the Red Sox? Really???? How do you know that the Pitchers that he had all those clutch hits against were not on PEDs and it was a fair playing field? So many players were on that stuff you can't single them all out as if the games never happened. I respect that you don't view Ortiz as a Red Sox legend, that's your choice but without him you can just erase those World Series titles and just give them to another team that had PED users as well.
  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's fair to say that all confirmed PED users should be shunned from the HOF if that's how you see it. It is not fair IMO to say once guilty, always guilty. That is reckless.



    mark
    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As I remember, Sammy Sosa was a fun, beloved ballplayer. Why did he from grace and not Ortiz?

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What I am saying perkdog is that Ortiz is no better than bonds, mcgwire, Clemens etc. And he should be viewed as such, and not beloved as he is now. He seems to have gotten a free pass. Do you feel bonds stats/acolades are legit? We don't know what all players did, but We can be sure that ALL players did not use, so therefore it was not a level playing field. All we need is one non user to make it cheating.



    No, we can't single all players out, only the ones we KNOW about. We have circumstantial evidence about bonds and Clemens, but no failed drug tests for them. Most agree they were users without having hard evidence against them. We actually have hard evidence against Ortiz yet he still gets a pass. It is hard to understand. Does this mean that if bonds was popular with

    The fans and press, he would be beloved by the masses? Bonds was a far far better player than Ortiz, yet his numbers are looked at as very tainted. Most dont even see him as the true home run king. Giving Ortiz the same treatment, why should we praise his clutch hitting any more than bonds records? Neither would have happened without peds.



    Ortiz was simply a good player for the twins before joining the Sox and meeting mr Ramirez.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • JHS5120JHS5120 Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: craig44
    What I am saying perkdog is that Ortiz is no better than bonds, mcgwire, Clemens etc.


    Three of the best players in modern baseball?

    Steroid witch hunts were all the rage a decade ago, but as fans live and learn from their mistakes they are able to look back and marvel at the most exciting era in baseball history.
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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that Ortiz should be treated no differently than any other ped user. personality should not be the deciding factor of a players legacy. Whether or not a player used peds to cheat should come WAY before that. If a player is caught, of course it taints everything he did in his career. all of those clutch hits, home runs etc are now tainted and should mean very little as they either wouldn't have happened or wouldn't have happened anywhere near as frequently without the help of ped. And when people say "well, he was only caught once, so...." I'm sorry, it doesn't matter. He had the choice to not do it and he knew the consequences of taking PEDs. It is similar to the guy caught for oui, explaining it to his wife, "honest honey, I only did it just this one time". Right, sure he did.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,480 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Truthfully, I think many fans simply don't share the same level of outrage that you do, craig. Ortiz is popular due to his personality, despite the all suspicions. At its basic level, the game is still fun to watch even with the cheaters. As far as the HOF, it will be interesting to see if Ortiz gets the same kind of love from the voters as he does from the fans. One does not necessarily correspond with the other.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • RipublicaninMassRipublicaninMass Posts: 10,051 ✭✭✭
    Someone is clearly sour grapes over investing in the wrong players. Its so transparent it makes me laugh out loud at each post. Let's keep this one going!
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't know if you were referring to me ripublican, but I have no financial dog in this race. I have no Ortiz, McGwire or sosa cards and very few bonds cards I am not a fan of any of these guys and don't know that any of them belong in the hall. I figure that if bonds can't get in, then there shouldnt be any chance a fellow cheater like Ortiz should ever sniff the hall even though fans and some talking heads alike seem to be gushing over him right now.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • Gemyanks10Gemyanks10 Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: RipublicaninMass
    Someone is clearly sour grapes over investing in the wrong players. Its so transparent it makes me laugh out loud at each post. Let's keep this one going!


    Who would invest in Ortiz??? Lol!


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  • DarinDarin Posts: 6,247 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Gastronome
    baseball is america’s pastime.
    a pastime is “an activity that someone does regularly for enjoyment rather than work; a hobby.”
    in other words, a pastime should be fun.
    ortiz epitomizes that.
    ortiz's nickname is big papi; the big father.
    while I’m sure ortiz plays to win, there is a certain reckless abandon with how he plays the game.
    he goes to the plate hackin’; a good chance you’ll see him rake or strikeout.
    99 hits this season and 57 are for extra bases; leading mlb in slg and ops.
    ortiz plays for the red sox; even here we have a “the 2016 boston red sox” thread.
    the next time we see an Oakland a’s thread or a kansas city royals thread (even though they are the defending ws champs) will be the first time.
    take all that, how can ortiz not be loved?


    I've started lots of Kansas City Royals threads.
    Although I'm afraid I'm going to have to lose the Gordo avatar,
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  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If not for PED's and the designated hitter a player like Ortiz would be just another after-thought in the annals of MLB history. to my mind that is why PED's are relevant to a discussion of him. they may not put the bat on the ball(whatever the hell that means) but they have allowed him to play well past his expiration date. any reasonable person should be able to remove the last five years worth of statistics from Ortiz's record and make a judgment on whether he belongs in the HOF not having those almost 150 HR's and 450 RBI.



    PED's helped him be able to play those years.
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Keets, I am with you 100%. people talk about all of his clutch hitting feats, but when faced with the facts that without peds none of those things would have happend, they go silent. That silence is telling.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • travis ttravis t Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭
    Baseball is a game that is run by very wealthy people. When you're no longer good enough to play it, they kick you to the curb. Somehow, Ortiz has missed out on that final kick. Red Sox fans, more than almost anyone else on the planet, can readily identify with this concept. They will support him no matter what. It's all just part of a big ol' middle finger aimed at the system. Lest we forget, the ultimate reward is the art of being victorious in a popularity contest. Which is how to reach the HOF.



    He is popular. Immensely so.
  • larryallen73larryallen73 Posts: 6,055 ✭✭✭
    Why can't it just be possible that he's having a great season at 40? Heck his batting average is only a little above Julio Franco's was at age 45, right!? I wish the man continued success... unless they are playing the Dodgers.
  • travis ttravis t Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: larryallen73

    Why can't it just be possible that he's having a great season at 40?




    Let's see.



    He essentially hits for the pitcher every game, only has to yank a slider 308 feet to right so he can jog around the bases, and never needs to bend over or stretch to reach for a ball unless it happens to roll into the dugout.



    Life is good. image
  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 4,103 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: travis t
    Originally posted by: larryallen73
    Why can't it just be possible that he's having a great season at 40?


    Let's see.

    He essentially hits for the pitcher every game, only has to yank a slider 308 feet to right so he can jog around the bases, and never needs to bend over or stretch to reach for a ball unless it happens to roll into the dugout.

    Life is good. image

    The point is that this has been Ortiz's job description for more or less his entire career. What he is doing at age 40 is unprecedented in the history of baseball. What he has done for the past several years has only Punkinhead Bonds as a precedent. Love him, hate him, ignore him as you see fit, but Ortiz is a cheater and it will be a shame if he is given the honor of HOF induction since the sport he has been playing isn't baseball.
    This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 29,361 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: dallasactuary
    Originally posted by: travis t
    Originally posted by: larryallen73
    Why can't it just be possible that he's having a great season at 40?


    Let's see.

    He essentially hits for the pitcher every game, only has to yank a slider 308 feet to right so he can jog around the bases, and never needs to bend over or stretch to reach for a ball unless it happens to roll into the dugout.

    Life is good. image

    The point is that this has been Ortiz's job description for more or less his entire career. What he is doing at age 40 is unprecedented in the history of baseball. What he has done for the past several years has only Punkinhead Bonds as a precedent. Love him, hate him, ignore him as you see fit, but Ortiz is a cheater and it will be a shame if he is given the honor of HOF induction since the sport he has been playing isn't baseball.

    Well then I Hate to break it to you but the game of baseball hasn't been played since the 80's then. And even then " Greenies" we're the preferred cheating drug. Edit: I see your point about him being the DH I thought you were referring to him cheating through PEDS my apologies for missing your point
  • travis ttravis t Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭
    In the 80s fame was THE drug. Greenies came way before.
  • JHS5120JHS5120 Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: dallasactuary
    The point is that this has been Ortiz's job description for more or less his entire career. What he is doing at age 40 is unprecedented in the history of baseball. What he has done for the past several years has only Punkinhead Bonds as a precedent. Love him, hate him, ignore him as you see fit, but Ortiz is a cheater and it will be a shame if he is given the honor of HOF induction since the sport he has been playing isn't baseball.


    Not to ruin your day, but there are several current Hall of Famers who took steroids.

    Nolan Ryan's ERA+ from ages 35-39 was 104, FIP of 2.99, k/9 8.9

    Nolan Ryan's ERA + from ages 40-44 was 121, FIP of 2.72, k/9 10.6

    Having a resurgence at the age of 40 is not unprecedented in baseball history.
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  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 4,103 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: perkdogWell then I Hate to break it to you but the game of baseball hasn't been played since the 80's then. And even then " Greenies" we're the preferred cheating drug.

    And how often do you see me post about anything that's happened since the 80's?

    I don't know what the rules, if any, were with regard to "greenies" in baseball's past, but I do know that there's no evidence that they improved performance. Alcohol was illegal for awhile, and I know a lot of players were drinking, but since it was hindering, not helping, them there's no black mark on their stats.

    Ortiz is a cheater, and he has put up better stats as a result of his cheating than he would have otherwise. A LOT better. I'm sure he's kind to children and puppies, and he may be a great human being and deserve all the praise that comes with that. But the HOF is an honor bestowed on people who played baseball better than most anyone else, and Ortiz is as deserving of that honor as Rosie Ruiz is of being in the Boston Marathon HOF. Speaking for all baseball fans, I say screw him.
    This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
  • JHS5120JHS5120 Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: dallasactuary
    Originally posted by: perkdogWell then I Hate to break it to you but the game of baseball hasn't been played since the 80's then. And even then " Greenies" we're the preferred cheating drug.
    Speaking for all baseball fans, I say screw him.


    You certainly do not speak for all baseball fans.
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    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 4,103 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: JHS5120Not to ruin your day, but there are several current Hall of Famers who took steroids.

    Nolan Ryan's ERA+ from ages 35-39 was 104, FIP of 2.99, k/9 8.9

    Nolan Ryan's ERA + from ages 40-44 was 121, FIP of 2.72, k/9 10.6

    Having a resurgence at the age of 40 is not unprecedented in baseball history.


    Spotting steroid use in hitters is child's play, at least if your eyes are open. In pitchers, it's a lot trickier. I obviously don't know if Ryan took any performance enhancers, and as with all things, it's possible. But I note that of the rare exceptions to the patterns that I laid out, the most common pattern is to stay flat throughout one's entire career.

    You cherry picked ages to make it look like Ryan had a remarkable resurgence late in his career, but here's a different breakout:

    25 and younger: ERA+ of 98
    26-30: 117
    31-35: 110
    36-40: 111
    41+ : 111

    Ryan's career is very strange in that his best seasons came at 25, 30, 34, 40 and 44. His very best seasons were at 30 and 34, consistent with the ~age 31 peak that 99% of players have, but neither the rise to peak nor the decline afterward was at all dramatic, and both are littered with both good and bad seasons.

    As I said, I don't know if Ryan ever cheated, but there is scant evidence that he did in the statistical record.
    This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No perkdog, baseball has been played by hundreds of player CLEANLY since the 80's. Your boy Ortiz just isn't one of them. I realize your hero worship has jaded your view of the situation. You must be delusional if you think Ortiz is performing naturally this year. Of course he's on peds.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would agree with Dallas when it comes to ryan. His career is remarkably consistent throughout. There is no statistical evidence, no failed drug test and no smoking gun with nolan. I think until there is a smoking gun or some sort of evidence against him it is safe to put him inthe clean camp. With Ortiz, however, we do have both hard evidence and statistical evidence. He has been on peds for a very long time and his statistics hold the prestige that comes with a cheater, none.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 4,103 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: JHS5120You certainly do not speak for all baseball fans.


    In baseball, steroids are against the rules; ergo, people using them are not playing baseball. You can be a fan of Ortiz, and whatever game it is that he's playing, but that game is not, by definition, "baseball" any more than what Rosie Ruiz ran in 1980 was a "marathon". I'm a baseball fan, you're a fan of the game Ortiz has been playing. I'm speaking for baseball fans. All of them.
    This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
  • JHS5120JHS5120 Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: dallasactuary
    Originally posted by: JHS5120You certainly do not speak for all baseball fans.


    In baseball, steroids are against the rules; ergo, people using them are not playing baseball. You can be a fan of Ortiz, and whatever game it is that he's playing, but that game is not, by definition, "baseball" any more than what Rosie Ruiz ran in 1980 was a "marathon". I'm a baseball fan, you're a fan of the game Ortiz has been playing. I'm speaking for baseball fans. All of them.


    I completely disagree with this absurd statement.
    My eBay Store =)

    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
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