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Similar Players

dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 4,102 ✭✭✭✭✭
Baseball-reference shows a list for each player of the 10 most similar players. What they mean by "most similar" is who has the most similar ABs, HRs, BA, etc. In other words, it's a very superficial comparison that has no context. I wondered which players were most similar in terms of what really matters - their value to their team. For this, I used Win Shares and compared each player's best season, second best season, etc. to other players. And because when we think of similar players we think of their best few seasons a lot more than we think of their worst few seasons and/or old man years, I weighted their best season the highest down to their last season the lowest.

The players I looked at are all fairly good - no Mario Mendoza - and all played several years, so no Mark Fidrych. And I only have Win Share data through 2001, so anybody who wasn't done by then, or who hadn't played all their good seasons by then, isn't included.

Here, then, is a list of a few players that I looked at - those I found interesting, and those who have been mentioned in this forum recently.

Babe Ruth

Honus Wagner is the most similar, but he's not even remotely close. The same was true of most of the greatest players - they have a very small peer group, and no two of them accomplished what they did in the same pattern. The exceptions are:

Stan Musial

Most similar player - Eddie Collins

Top 10 Win Shares for each:

M C
46 43
44 43
40 40
39 39
39 39
38 38
37 36
33 35
32 32
30 31

and

Pete Rose

Most similar player: Sam Crawford

R C
37 36
34 36
32 32
32 32
31 32
30 31
29 28
28 27
27 25
27 24


Without the detail, some others (with three most similar):

Joe Morgan: Rickey Henderson, Jimmie Foxx, Eddie Mathews

Rod Carew: Tony Gwynn, Frankie Frisch, Willie Stargell

Lou Brock: Jimmy Sheckard, Tony Perez, Bobby Grich

Roberto Clemente: Goose Goslin, Harry Heilmann, Zach Wheat

Reggie Jackson: Jesse Burkett, Luke Appling, Robin Yount

Will Clark: Carl Yastrzemski, Joe Medwick, Willie McCovey

Gene Tenace: Greg Luzinski, Juan Gonzalez, Ginger Beaumont

Ron Fairly: Tony Phillipps, Lave Cross, Rick Monday

Bill Freehan: Clyde Milan, Jim Rice, Heine Manush

Jim Rice: Heine Manush, Bill Freehan, Enos Slaughter

Roy White: Jimmy Collins, Bobby Veach, Edgar Martinez

Bill Buckner: Bill Mazeroski, Frank White, Jim Sundberg


And I wish they were more interesting, but the two most similar players of all time are

Bill White and Rudy York

W Y
27 27
26 26
24 26
22 22
22 22
18 18
16 17
16 16
14 15
12 13


This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.

Comments

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Very interesting. Cool to note that two of will clarks similarities are hofers

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I also never considered reggie and yount as similar players

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,171 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: craig44
    I also never considered reggie and yount as similar players


    They weren't similar as far as a type of player, they had similar values when rating them using win shares.

    Gwynn and Stargell weren't "similar" either!



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  • DarinDarin Posts: 6,247 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Gene Tenace and a guy named Ginger seems about right.

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  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 4,102 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: JoeBanzai
    Originally posted by: craig44
    I also never considered reggie and yount as similar players


    They weren't similar as far as a type of player, they had similar values when rating them using win shares.

    Gwynn and Stargell weren't "similar" either!


    That's exactly right. What I find interesting, and instructive, about the exercise is that it brings into focus that players can provide similar value in very different ways. Reggie and Yount were closer to opposites than duplicates; what Reggie did well were not Yount's strengths, and what Yount did well were not Reggie's strengths. But a high average shortstop with above average power and speed is very valuable; about the same value as a monster slugger who takes a lot of walks as it turns out.


    And one thing that comes out pretty clearly in this or most any other exercise is that catchers just aren't that valuable if you measure them the same way as you measure everybody else. Bench and Berra compare to mostly HOFers, but that's about it. Carter and Fisk have a mix of lower-tier HOFers (Tony Perez, e.g.) and non-HOFers (like Rusty Staub) in their comparables lists. Bill James and WAR just give catchers an across-the-board "bump" to get them to a place that "feels" right. I didn't do that here, but I think it's correct to do that. A major league team with a bad catcher isn't going to win many games, and it seems unfair to treat catchers as if they didn't have to play the game squatting down and standing up 150 times wearing several pounds of uncomfortable gear. A team that can get 140 quality games out of a catcher has been helped as much as the team that can get 160 quality games out of an outfielder. That's just my opinion, but I'm very comfortable with it.
    This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,721 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am just not getting this... I don't see how Joe Morgan and Jimmie Foxx have much in common

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  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 4,102 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: coinkat
    I am just not getting this... I don't see how Joe Morgan and Jimmie Foxx have much in common

    What they have in common is their value to their teams.

    That said, like most of the game's superstars, Morgan isn't actually all that similar to anyone.

    Morgan's and Foxx's Win Shares, from best to worst season:

    M F
    44 41
    40 40
    39 34
    37 34
    37 34
    30 32
    30 30
    29 30
    29 26
    26 24
    24 24
    24 23
    21 22
    19 20
    19 8
    18 6
    17 5
    14 1
    12 1
    2
    1

    Morgan was clearly but not significantly better than Foxx in their best seasons and Morgan significantly outlasted Foxx, but they were similar enough for the meat of their careers that Foxx is one of the most similar to Morgan overall.

    I think what you need to let go of is the notion that "similar" players had similar skills. What I mean by similar is along the lines of "which player do you want on your team?". If you have the choice between Rudy York and Bill White, you can flip a coin - they were virtually of identical value. If you have the choice between Joe Morgan and Jimmy Foxx, you should take Morgan, but if you get Foxx the difference between them is small relative to any other player you could take.
    This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,479 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think it may be the choice of title that is confusing some~though you did elaborate what you mean in the opening paragraph of the thread, perhaps coinkat missed reading that explanation.


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  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,721 ✭✭✭✭✭
    okay... sometimes it just takes me longer than others... sorry

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

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