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Should PCGS Authorized Dealers Be SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDED From Participating In The PCGS Registry (POL
RBinTex
Posts: 4,328 ✭
If only to avoid even the appearance of impropriety regarding their true intentions with respect to their registry sets (i.e. so as to preclude coins from being registered that they may intend to later sell) AND/OR so as collectors will not have to compete against dealers? 
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The first thought that came to mind was TDN. Technically he is a dealer (i think partial owner of Legend qualifies him as one?) but his seated and trade dollars should obviously be in the registry. However, Legend should not be able to list, for instance, a type set using their inventory coins.
Bottom line in my humble opinion is that only coins specifically purchased for a collection should be eligible for the registry. It doesn't matter if it is a dealer or a collector, if it's going into their personal collection they should be able to list it.
Mark
Do you not see the problem with policing such a policy? Who is to say when it is no longer part of one's "collection" and instead is something one wants to sell? Would you define a "personal collection" as something that never gets sold? What about of disposing of undergrades? What about when the challenge of completing a set has been achieved and one gets bored of it or just wants the money for something else? Where is the line? I see nothing wrong wth having a goal to complete the best set possible with the intention that when it is completed one will dispose of it and move on to something else.
That's an excellent idea and a very reasonable and respectful policy (at least - and especially - when whole sets are sold to one buyer).
<< <i>Mark,
Do you not see the problem with policing such a policy? Who is to say when it is no longer part of one's "collection" and instead is something one wants to sell? Would you define a "personal collection" as something that never gets sold? What about of disposing of undergrades? What about when the challenge of completing a set has been achieved and one gets bored of it or just wants the money for something else? Where is the line? I see nothing wrong wth having a goal to complete the best set possible with the intention that when it is completed one will dispose of it and move on to something else. >>
The PCGS Registry was developed for collectors to showcase their coins as their collections grew.
Further, it is a community to discuss ( civilly ) numismatic information and compare one's collected
items relative to other collections.
It was NOT intended as a marketing mechanism for dealers wanting to sell their wares. Even so,
dealers have misused this venue on a number of occasions, over the years, by listing full, or
partial sets for a short time prior to a sale. Often it is the dealer that shuffles coins in & out of
a set to reach the highest rank and have the greatest exposure for their pieces for eventual sale.
Some have gone so far as to advertize other business dealings on the Registry, as a "Total___Solution"
to the buyer's every need.
Dealers approach coin collecting from a different perspective from that of collectors & have a
short time horizon for their holdings. Without adequate controls on dealers participating
in the Registry process, it would soon reach the appearance of a sales promotion on the back
pages of a magazine.
This poll & discussion should be about all dealers that intend to sell inventory over a short
period of time, NOT just PCGS authorized dealers.
Persons who actively buy & sell coins in the open market place, for profit, have a recognized
business and advertize their inventory,,,and also wish to register their "personal" collection
on the Registry should be allowed providing:
1. Their entry in the Registry should be asterisked, so everyone knows it is a dealer's set.
2. Each coin in the set should remain listed in the Registry for at least a period of time, say
6 months, before it can be removed.
3. Upon sale of a listed set, the entire set should be removed from the All - Time list.
4. Once coins in a dealer's set are deleted from the Registry they may not be re-used in
the Registry by anyone for a period of time, say 6 months.
These are just a few suggestions for providing common ground & an even playing field for
allowing collectors, as well as, dealer's personal sets to be placed in the Registry.
R.I.P. Bear
Agreed for PCGS authorized dealers but what about all the other "dealers"? Policy to remain moot? Who decides/how are "other" dealers defined?
"2. Each coin in the set should remain listed in the Registry for at least a period of time, say 6 months, before it can be removed."
So once a dealer lists it either it can't be sold OR the new buyer has to buy it knowing it can't be registered until the remainder of the 6 month waiting period has elapsed (subject to #4 below)?
"3. Upon sale of a listed set, the entire set should be removed from the All - Time list."
Presumably this would not apply to non-dealers? What if it remained unless and until the same exact set got re-listed?
"4. Once coins in a dealer's set are deleted from the Registry they may not be re-used in the Registry by anyone for a period of time, say 6 months."
So, going back to #2 above, after the initial 6 months has elapsed the buyer would have to wait an additional 6 months?
Why should my authorized dealer status make a difference?
WH
<< <i>Should PCGS Authorized Dealers Be SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDED From Participating In The PCGS Registry (POLL)? >>
No.
Why should they?
It shouldn't mater at all, if someone owns a coin, it is theirs, and if they want to start a set well then it is up to them period.
What is the problem?
JMHO,
Tim
<< <i>I'm a PCGS authorized dealer. I have a single Registry Set. Those coins are not for sale (despite the inquiries I get (you know who you are)).
Why should my authorized dealer status make a difference?
WH >>
Here's a prime example of a dealer participating in the Registry as it was intended. He has
had a Registry Set for years now, for his personal set, and has not used it to sell items, or
create business. His input has fostered discussion and provided knowledge to this Forum.
Unfortunately, this has not been the case with others who have listed in the Registry.
R.I.P. Bear
Perhaps a solution would be to set a time requirement of listing for award eligibility, to prevent inventory competing against collectors. It would also eliminate sniping for the top set.
Y'all care to elaborate?
They do things against the spirit since it will benefit them (and not everyone as a whole) and so more rules and restrictions have to be thought about.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
So, if one were to assert purely from a hypothetical standpoint that the majority (absent dealer votes) were in favor of PCGS authorized dealers not participating in the registry, what would an appropriate response from PCGS on this issue?
Can ANY dealer that participates assert with absolute certainty that ANY of their sets are comprised of coins that they have NO intention of EVER selling?
Should a COMPLETE absence of an intention to EVER sell a coin currently residing in a registry set be a prerequisite for participating (for anyone) in the registry?
I would assert that it is WELL within the letter AND spirit of the rules as currently composed that one would be well within their rights to start and subsequenlty complete a set with the intention that once it was in fact completed (and thus the challenge/goal had been accomplished) that they would be able to sell said set and move on to the next challenge.
RB: In can only tell you this - I have around 40 active registry sets and I have sold approximately 1% of the coins in my registry sets over the past roughly 5+ years. Those few coins were often times as a consequence of a very good customer specifically asking for a coin I may have acquired years ago for a set the collector may have started recently and really needed a particular coin for (ex: I once let go an MS68FS Jefferson nickel I owned). I am curoius what % of the collectors out there have held on to 99% of their registry coins over a 5+ year period? Half???
Wondercoin
When I read Roger's question about whether every dealer can be ABSOLUTELY certain they would not sell coins in their sets, I think why would Roger even think that. What is his motivation for thinking that?
You see, Mitch is telling us he is a dealer who also collects and has many registry sets. And THOSE sets are basically NOT FOR SALE. Does he mean that he would NEVER sell them. I don't think so, and I, as a collector, would not expect him as a dealer to NEVER sell his registry sets. To me, it is clear he has distinguished, IN HIS OWN MIND, between the coins he sells in his inventory and the coins he lists in the set registries.
When I read what Roger is saying about dealers and set registries I get confused as to exactly what points he is trying to make. I "think" he is trying to say that if you are a dealer, by definition you shouldn't have sets in the set registry. But Roger is (or was?) a dealer and he had or has sets in the set registry. What it really comes down to for dealers is that THEY have to individually decide whether coins in their inventory are for sale or are being held for their private collection. Most honorable dealers can do that and most collectors can accept what those dealers do as regards what the dealers put into the set registries. JMHO. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Intention is fairly easy to discern. I remember this coming up not long ago with the Ann Kate Collection. It was registered just a couple of months before it went on the block. To my knowledge however, this was a collector and not a dealer, and that his dealer convinced him to register the set before the sale to preserve the posterity of the collection. I don't blame him. Maybe it is a sort of promoting, but I can see the other side too and promoting is not the same as selling.
Another example as Jack pointed out is Gerry. If Gerry decided to sell his set tomorrow and finally registered it, I would be fine with it. Everybody knows he has one and what caliber it is. I frankly would love to see how it stacks up coin for coin with Stewart's (although I do know who what what big coins). Gerry also has the finest assembled Memorial Set, and Dan Close would even testify to that.
It's not so hard to know what the right thing to do is.
But I will share what I have been thinking of for a while now.....and yes, it is totally selfish.
I tend to think of the registry as a type of competition.
Being a 'normal' (whatever that is) collector & not a coin dealer, I can honestly say I feel like I have NO chance at all competing against dealers in any set they decide to 'compete' in.
I'm not talking about a set a dealer throws together, but one they have a passion for.
I may be wrong, but in my mind I see dealers as buying coins at a discount (raw or graded), sending in to grading services at discounts (if sent in bulk), and getting tax breaks.
OK dealers, start flaming......I may be wrong, but that's just what I think.
What I would like to see is some way to identify 'collectors' from 'dealers'.
It's not that dealers can create sets, maybe I do care if it's just a selling ploy, but rather the feeling I don't know where I stand compared to other 'regular' collectors.
JMHO
I am honestly not sure a "dealer" has virtually any chance against a true collector with strong means due to his status as a "dealer". Let's face it, isn't this mostly about "net worth" when you boil it down, not collector or dealer status?
Wondercoin
Does the OP think that a collector can not compete with a dealer? What is next, “class Registry sets”, I mean Registry set for members with annual income over $1 mill, next class over $ 100 thousand, and last class for members under $50,000. What would happen if Bill Gates decided to collect Jefferson Nickels, does anyone think that a dealer could afford a better set in the Registry if Gates wanted to compete?
It would certainly SEEM that PCGS authorized Dealers would have an Inside Edge.
With Bulk submissions in mind, this Inside Edge, real or perceived, WOULD give them better & more opportunity to "make" higher graded pieces.
If they use such an advantage for the sole purpose of creating sets only to use the Registry as spring boards to advertise sets specifically created for resale, NO, they should NOT be allowed to take part.
To build sets such as Mitch's ties up a LOT of dough. Eventually, for any # of variables, they may need to sell just to "get out" before being buried - in which case even if the preceding reason was NOT the intent when said set(s) was/ were being built, they would inevitably be accused of having had this motive in mind from the jump yet may not at all be true.
I voted Agree, they SHOULD be EXCLUDED to avoid certain situations and accusations HOWEVER, they pay for coins & submissionns along with Membership dues just like everyone else. On THESE grounds, perhaps they should be permitted to take part. I'm hopelessly split on this one - feeling BOTH sentiments.
What I said in the other thread was: "the set was quietly assembled with the intention to sell it as a full set upon completion." Meaning that when the challenge of completing it had been accomplished I intended on selling it and moving on to the next challenge. Your inferences to the contrary aside, this is not the point of THIS thread (& I'd appreeciate you not hijacking it off topic). But just to indulge your accussations, if someone created a set with the intention of selling it when it was completed should that automatically preclude them from participating in the registry OR having their set preserved for posterity? Perhaps another poll is in order?
The point is that a reasonable person can easily assume that absent the (conflict of interest) votes of PCGS authorized dealers on this topic the majority of people (36/40 right now) don't think it proper that dealers participate in the registry. What should PCGS do if this IS in fact a representative sample of their registry participants? Can you all speak to THAT point?
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
"I'm a PCGS authorized dealer. I have a single Registry Set. Those coins are not for sale (despite the inquiries I get (you know who you are)). Why should my authorized dealer status make a difference?"
Jeepers, probably the single most successful registry set owner in the world (most #1 or #2 sets), is Mr. Wondercoin who has something like two dozen top or near top sets. Do you really want to exclude his sets or Wayne's? Or do you want to know and have a chance to admire those sets? Laura Sperber and her boss (?) Trade Dollar Nut have compiled some great sets too. I don't want to exclude them.
I welcome the competition. Much more fun that way. And speaking of competition, if I remember correctly, at one point she bragged that she was going to take my sets to the cleaners. So far, she ain't done it even though her company and she have 10 times the money I do and see about a thousand times more coins per year than I do.
Just Having Fun
<< <i> I don't think anyone should be precluded (although I can see where collectors would not want to compete with dealers) as long as an explicit rule is not violated. As for the "spirit rules", either PCGS should enumerate them or in the alternative, they should not be attempted to enforce an imagined rule that was not clearly ennunciated. >>
Roger, why do you believe that collectors would not want to compete with dealers? Why do you feel it is necessary for PCGS to ennunciate and or enforce an imagined rule? Why do you feel it important to use certain words that may have different meanings to those who read them? If you would say things in simple plain English I think it would help you to better communicate what you mean to say and also help your creditability with the other members of this forum. JMHO. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Steve,
What do YOU think the 37 people that voted "agree" (up to this point) think? Are you completely ignoring that fact that in all probability, absent the (clearly conflict of interest) votes of PCGS authorized dealers themselves, that the MAJORITY of respondendents chose "agree"?
My point as to the rules was that any application of a rule that doesn't even EXPLICITLY exist is NOT in the spirit of what this country was founded upon (my Memorial day plug).
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>I would only ask that when a dealer lists a set for the purpose of selling it that he be open to removing it completely from the All-Time list after the completion of the sale. This way, the same set does not show up 2x (selling dealer and then new buyer). Wondercoin >>
I would go one step further. If a coin is purchased with intent to sell don't list it in the registry. I know many dealers are collectors too but they should only register coins they intend to keep for a while or sets they are putting together for customers.
Maybe it makes sense to have a dealer registry that is separate from the collector registry where anything goes including sales pitches in the description.
Yet, another way to hunt for the coins that you need.
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
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<< <i>I'm a PCGS authorized dealer. I have a single Registry Set. Those coins are not for sale (despite the inquiries I get (you know who you are)).
Why should my authorized dealer status make a difference?
WH >>
Wayne,
It makes no difference.
Dealers like to COLLECT coins too!
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
Of course there are probably common sense limits to where you draw the line. For example, if a person IDENTIFIES as a dealer, is a member of several dealer associations and has a website, etc., then clearly they are serious dealers of coins. Should that exclude them from being COLLECTORS too? In my own opinion, I think not. Maybe a good compromise is stipulate that coins in your registry have to stay in your possession for a reasonable period of time, say at least 6 weeks. I think 3 months is better but whatever is best could be determined by consensus. To do otherwise, would render moot the rankings of best sets. For example, say 'Dealer A' gets a 1909 VDB proof in 67RD and puts it in his registry set. That single coin could rocket them up several notches in the Matte Proof Registry rankings. If the coin is then sold a week or two later, "boom!", 'Dealer A' goes down in the list again. I think that scenario invites too much chaos.
Another solution is: Have serious dealers (see above for definition) have their own 'Dealer Registry Sets' and have dealers compete against dealers and collectors compete against collectors. Personally I think that is a little too whacky and will end up cluttering the site with another entire list of the different possible sets.
Perhaps dealers should only have registry sets with coins they only collect and generally don't sell. A copper specialist could happily have their own private collection of say, Morgans and having a registry for those wouldn't be a "conflict of interest" and those coins wouldn't actively be for sale. The inventory wouldn't change rapidly and things would stay relatively calm and stable.
These are all just ideas of course. I really don't know what is best for everyone. Nevertheless, a dealer could do it the way Andy does it at Angel Dee's: Help collectors improve their registry sets and not have any of his own. That way Andy doesn't compete and is another way he keeps the customers happy.
Reviewing this ressurected eight year old thread and I really miss some of the posters who aren't here anymore.
Sorry to interrupt. Carry on.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Very occasionally, I upgrade a coin and the coin that was replaced goes on sale. Maybe 2 or 3 times a year.
If you believe that my selling 2 or 3 coins out of my set each year destroys the entire concept of registry sets,
I humbly suggest you worry about something else.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Rob
Successful Trades with: Coincast, MICHAELDIXON
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WS