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Tungsten filled American Gold Eagles

WeissWeiss Posts: 9,935 ✭✭✭✭✭
From our own Meltdown on the PM forum. Figured it was important enough for everyone to know about. One may be easy to spot. But one mixed in with a roll of unaltered coins could cost someone a thousand dollars and their reputation.


Tungsten AGEs on the PM forum

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We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
--Severian the Lame

Comments

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This certainly needs widespread publication.... seems they were really well done. Cheers, RickO
  • Coin FinderCoin Finder Posts: 6,944 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How did the buyer know?
  • Jackthecat1Jackthecat1 Posts: 1,122 ✭✭✭
    Thank you for posting this.
    Member ANS, ANA, GSNA, TNC



    image
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Where in the country did this batch surface? I understand that they could be anywhere by now.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: thebigeng
    How did the buyer know?


    From the thread, 2 failed the spectrometer test and 3 failed the ping test.

    Buying slabbed AGEs would help.
  • MeltdownMeltdown Posts: 8,650 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yep. 3 of them came into a local shop, milled & filled with Tungsten. A pretty profesional job from what I understand. The Tungsten plugs weighed 22 grams and were super glued inside the AGE's.
    Before being pried open, the seem was very difficult to see. They did not ping when tested the old fashioned way and 1 of them did initially pass the spectrometer test... later the tester revealed it was not legit.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Since the seller claimed he was duped, wouldn't confiscating the gold shells still be a bit stiff as they are still gold? How much gold was in the shells?
  • MeltdownMeltdown Posts: 8,650 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's unresolved at this point. The seller is part of the ongoing process of determining what to do. Like I said, the Tungsten weighed 22grams. So, roughly 12 grams of gold left over.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Zoins

    Since the seller claimed he was duped, wouldn't confiscating the gold shells still be a bit stiff as they are still gold? How much gold was in the shells?




    A very interesting question.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • AmazonXAmazonX Posts: 680 ✭✭✭✭
    This kind of scamming is not cool, but the part of me that is a counterfeit collector does think it's a little cool. Too bad they didn't fill it with platinum.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: AmazonX
    This kind of scamming is not cool, but the part of me that is a counterfeit collector does think it's a little cool. Too bad they didn't fill it with platinum.


    From a collector point of view, would they cooler in a single piece where you can barely tell? Or are they cooler split apart?
  • OverdateOverdate Posts: 6,902 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Zoins
    Buying slabbed AGEs would help.

    So would buying fractionals.

    My Adolph A. Weinman signature :)

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,301 ✭✭✭✭✭
    These do not worry me in the least. Examination with a 10X loupe will quickly reveal the seam. Also, the ring test will quickly unmask these counterfeits. Counterfeit and altered gold coins are nothing new in the marketplace.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Zoins

    Originally posted by: thebigeng

    How did the buyer know?




    From the thread, 2 failed the spectrometer test and 3 failed the ping test.



    Buying slabbed AGEs would help.




    But there are fake slabs out there, and being in a slab would prevent you from doing a ring test.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would like to see a magnified picture of the edge to determine how good the seam appears.

    Cheers, RickO
  • ScarsdaleCoinScarsdaleCoin Posts: 5,179 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I disagree about being able to see the seams, over 40 years ago I worked in a factory that made magician's effects... the owner Pat was a master machinist and using tools of that era made trick coins for magicians... these coins that were handed out to examine ALWAYS fooled the public... with today's machinery I doubt that you would see the seam, thinking about 12 grams of gold if done in quantity overseas could be quite profitable and would not surprise me. I had a fake 1/10 oz come into shop yesterday and the folks bought it back in the early 90's
    Jon Lerner - Scarsdale Coin - www.CoinHelp.com
  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,935 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've seen some amazing output from computer-aided CNC lathes. I think milling gold from a gold eagle would be child's play by comparison.

    Here's a 7-year old video of a CNC creating a 3-dimensional chess piece.

    This is one of their high end machines. But you can buy one of this company's used machines on eBay for a few thousand dollars.

    Considering that any bullion coin has known dimensions to the .0000 of an inch, you could write a top and bottom program for any coin you like, maximizing your gold harvest as much or as little as you like. Then it would literally mean pushing a button to create your milled out coin in a few seconds.
    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,796 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A good job of tooling and machine work, though a deviant on the inside. (another "side" we need to be cognizant of). As if one "caveat" was ever enough. image
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,301 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: ScarsdaleCoin

    I disagree about being able to see the seams, over 40 years ago I worked in a factory that made magician's effects... the owner Pat was a master machinist and using tools of that era made trick coins for magicians... these coins that were handed out to examine ALWAYS fooled the public... with today's machinery I doubt that you would see the seam, thinking about 12 grams of gold if done in quantity overseas could be quite profitable and would not surprise me. I had a fake 1/10 oz come into shop yesterday and the folks bought it back in the early 90's




    That's why I said you would need a good 10X loupe with a good light source. The seam may not be visible with the naked eye but under high magnification you can see die flow of the metal including any interruptions in the die flow.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,301 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: ricko

    I would like to see a magnified picture of the edge to determine how good the seam appears.

    Cheers, RickO




    The seam is not on the edge---it's just inside the rim.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: CaptHenway
    Originally posted by: Zoins
    Originally posted by: thebigeng
    How did the buyer know?


    From the thread, 2 failed the spectrometer test and 3 failed the ping test.

    Buying slabbed AGEs would help.


    But there are fake slabs out there, and being in a slab would prevent you from doing a ring test.


    Of course, you would need to be able to identify fake slabs.

    The good thing is that PCGS is improving their slabs and I haven't seen a counterfeit of their latest generation yet. PCGS says the new holders have multiple overt and covert security features to deter counterfeiters and identify counterfeit holders and are virtually impossible to replicate.

    Using a 10X loupe with a good light source as PerryHall mentioned would still work. Would a spectrometer work through a slab?
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: PerryHall
    Originally posted by: ricko
    I would like to see a magnified picture of the edge to determine how good the seam appears.
    Cheers, RickO


    The seam is not on the edge---it's just inside the rim.


    Good post PerryHall.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,301 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Zoins

    Originally posted by: CaptHenway

    Originally posted by: Zoins

    Originally posted by: thebigeng

    How did the buyer know?




    From the thread, 2 failed the spectrometer test and 3 failed the ping test.



    Buying slabbed AGEs would help.




    But there are fake slabs out there, and being in a slab would prevent you from doing a ring test.




    Of course, you would need to be able to identify fake slabs.



    The good thing is that PCGS is improving their slabs and I haven't seen a counterfeit of their latest generation yet. PCGS says the new holders have multiple overt and covert security features to deter counterfeiters and identify counterfeit holders and are virtually impossible to replicate.



    Using a 10X loupe with a good light source as PerryHall mentioned would still work. Would a spectrometer through a slab?


    A spectrometer wouldn't work because the outter shells are made from real coins.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: PerryHall
    Originally posted by: Zoins
    Originally posted by: CaptHenway
    Originally posted by: Zoins
    Originally posted by: thebigeng
    How did the buyer know?


    From the thread, 2 failed the spectrometer test and 3 failed the ping test.

    Buying slabbed AGEs would help.


    But there are fake slabs out there, and being in a slab would prevent you from doing a ring test.


    Of course, you would need to be able to identify fake slabs.

    The good thing is that PCGS is improving their slabs and I haven't seen a counterfeit of their latest generation yet. PCGS says the new holders have multiple overt and covert security features to deter counterfeiters and identify counterfeit holders and are virtually impossible to replicate.

    Using a 10X loupe with a good light source as PerryHall mentioned would still work. Would a spectrometer work through a slab?

    A spectrometer wouldn't work because the outter shells are made from real coins.


    2 of the 3 fakes were reported as failing a spectrometer test. Perhaps the shells were thin enough to fail?

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